| fernando | Hello, |
|---|
| fernando | first of all, let me apologize in the name of the previous speaker who |
|---|
| fernando | couldn't come here because of some personal problems |
|---|
| fernando | Alvaro del Castillo's talk will be announced. |
|---|
| fernando | We are very pleased to have here today Mark |
|---|
| Zealey, |
| fernando | he is a Lead Developer |
|---|
| fernando | on
project ZealOS, and also he is developer on
projets like: Open Projects |
|---|
| fernando | http://openprojects.net/ |
|---|
| fernando | Visit them |
|---|
| fernando | Well, do not abandon us, anyway ;) |
|---|
| fernando | and The Unviverse (http://www.advogato.org/The%20Univer |
|---|
| se |
| fernando | Also in |
|---|
| fernando | http://www.theuniverse.god |
|---|
| fernando | Try to visit it ;) |
|---|
| fernando | He is going to talk about ZealOS. |
|---|
| fernando | Mr. Zealey ... |
|---|
| JALH | hiyas |
|---|
| JALH | Well, first time I've done a talk on irc |
|---|
| JALH | so please bear with me |
|---|
| JALH | Zealos is a project to develop a cool operating system, |
|---|
| one which is totally modular |
| JALH | and can be upgraded on the fly, by loading newer |
|---|
| versions of the modules |
| JALH | It would also be nice to impliment some method of |
|---|
| having a per-user module-space, so one user could have some |
| modules loaded that didn't affect another user's modules |
| JALH | etc |
|---|
| JALH | This is the sorta thing that the hurd does, but umm, the |
|---|
| hurd doesn't ;> |
| (Signed off) |
| JALH | Zealos is based round a very small core, aiming to be < |
|---|
| 50kb compiled |
| JALH | and then it boots, with minimum drivers |
|---|
| JALH | and uses those to load other modules |
|---|
| JALH | which will form an operating system |
|---|
| JALH | So, for example, if someone write an emulation of the |
|---|
| linux tcpip stack, you could load that module |
| JALH | and then it would behave like linux, tcp/ip wise |
|---|
| JALH | the cool thing about per-user modules is that one user |
|---|
| could have the linux tcp/ip stack module loaded and another one |
| could have the bsd one loaded, at the same time |
| JALH | but that's a bit far in the future :) |
|---|
| JALH | Another feature of zealos is that it can be upgraded |
|---|
| on-the-fly, so if you have some module running, you can just load a |
| newer version of that module, and it will automatically link itself in with |
| the rest of the kernel, as if nothing had happened |
| JALH | So no more reboots :) |
|---|
| JALH | as the whole OS is modular, you can do this to any part |
|---|
| of the OS |
| by peer) |
| JALH | This is done basically by having a function-lookup |
|---|
| table, and then all calls go via an offset of that table, so just updating a |
| pointer in that table means that it will refer to a new function |
| peer) |
| JALH | This does slow the system down a bit, but not by much |
|---|
| JALH | especially on CISC CPU's, like x86 |
|---|
| timeout) |
| JALH | Another interesting feature is the new build system that |
|---|
| I'm just writing a spec for, and soon to be coded |
| JALH | it's going to support the standard, make config, make, |
|---|
| make install etc |
| JALH | and also support automatic downloading of module |
|---|
| source |
| JALH | a bit like apt in debian, but for the kernel |
|---|
| JALH | and also, configuring of specific modules etc |
|---|
| JALH | There's also going to be a server up on the internet, where you |
|---|
| can request it to build a kernel for you, if you give it the kernel config via a |
| web-page |
| JALH | And also a CPAN-like front-end for the manual downloading of |
|---|
| module source |
| JALH | they'll also be a nice update command, to update all |
|---|
| modules, or ones you specified to the latest source version |
| JALH | Another thing, dunno how well it would work, is a |
|---|
| system to detect the current config of the box and generate a config |
| for you based on that, obviously it could never be 100% perfect, but it |
| would save a lot of time for someone. |
| JALH | So, current status of the project |
|---|
| JALH | There's quite a lot of the core kernel code around |
|---|
| JALH | no tasking yet, but quite a nice and simple mm system |
|---|
| JALH | just needs page-faulting adding to it |
|---|
| JALH | There's a kick-ass ATA hard disk reader, beats the |
|---|
| linux one by about 25% on my box (in PIO mode), needs DMA mode |
| adding |
| JALH | We're working on a PCI sub-system, already detects |
|---|
| the card you have in your computer, bridges etc, a bit more work |
| needs to be done on that though |
| JALH | and zwane is working on SMP, not got it booting on an |
|---|
| SMP box yet, but we're getting there :-) |
| JALH | We've got the base of an ext2 implimentation, it just |
|---|
| needs extending to support fun stuff, like files and directories :-) |
| JALH | there's a web page at http://zealos.org, lots of links there |
|---|
| JALH | and the whole code is in CVS |
|---|
| JALH | The mailing list is zealos@zealos.org |
|---|
| (majordomo@zealos.org to subscribe) |
| JALH | any questions etc ? |
|---|
| JALH | (please ask them in #qc) |
|---|
| rapha | Where do you want to go with ZwalOS? Will it remain a |
|---|
| just-for-fun system? |
| JALH | um, oops |
|---|
| JALH | #qc is moderated ;( |
|---|
| rapha | :-) |
|---|
| rapha | because of that I allowed myself to ask here |
|---|
| JALH | rapha, yeah, it'll stay just for fun I think :) |
|---|
| rapha | s/w/e |
|---|
| (Signed off) |
| JALH | <erikm> JALH: how would you replace the low level |
|---|
| kernel without having to |
| JALH | reboot? |
|---|
| JALH | <velco> upgrading on the fly, how about processes (if |
|---|
| have such cool stuff) |
| JALH | which already use given module ? |
|---|
| irc.us.uninet.edu) |
| JALH | There is no low-level kernel in zealos, it's all just functions, all of |
|---|
| which are registered with the functions code, so if you upgrade a function, it |
| will automatically be used over the old version |
| JALH | (the only thing that can't be upgraded is the functions code :) |
|---|
| JALH | <hensema> JALH: Will/does it have any API compatibility with |
|---|
| other OS'ses |
| JALH | (Posix)? |
|---|
| JALH | It doesn't atm, but should be easy enough to write POSIX |
|---|
| wrapper functions and bundle them into a module |
| JALH | <viXard> What license is Zealos under ? |
|---|
| JALH | GPL |
|---|
| JALH | <LarstiQ> How is this different from (other?) microkernels ? |
|---|
| JALH | For a start, it's not really a microkernel, a microkernel has |
|---|
| user-land servers on it which communicate with a base kernel |
| JALH | afaik, nothing like this has been done before :-) |
|---|
| JALH | <[freedom]> ZealOS & Hurd... The microkernel tech is really an |
|---|
| alternative to |
| JALH | the actual stile of OS's? |
|---|
| JALH | I'm not sure, no microkernel has ever 'made' it before, if |
|---|
| you look at the likes of bsd and linux, they're all monolithic |
| JALH | because in the world of kernel's, neatness doesn't really matter, |
|---|
| speed does |
| JALH | (well, w2k is a microkernel supposidly, but...) |
|---|
| JALH | <gcc> In How Many Time do you think that your system will be |
|---|
| complete? |
| JALH | Not sure, I doubt it will be long though (5 years later... ;) |
|---|
| JALH | It depends what you mean by complete, is linux complete? |
|---|
| JALH | Something usable should happen within the next year, we have |
|---|
| some people interested in doing a tcp/ip stack for it, ... |
| JALH | <viXard> how many people working in the core team ? |
|---|
| JALH | about 3 or 4 |
|---|
| JALH | <viXard> what´s the latest version released ? |
|---|
| JALH | um, there's nothing that's been released, the current code in |
|---|
| CVS prolly won't compile (as it is bleeding-edge) |
| JALH | tbh, I don't think anything yet has been good enough to release, |
|---|
| sure, it's got some nice bench-marks in it, but no shell or anything that people |
| would be interested in apart from the code :) |
| JALH | There is talk of doing an in-kernel shell via a module to let you |
|---|
| peek about at bits of the kernel as they run. That could be quite fun |
| JALH | <FloodeR> If you load a module that require |
|---|
| JALH | <FloodeR> An upgrade of other modules (core kernel, for |
|---|
| example) |
| JALH | Interesting problem, I'd think it should error out, and give a -f |
|---|
| (force) option for maniacs |
| JALH | and maybe an option to upgrade the bits that need upgrading |
|---|
| JALH | :) |
|---|
| JALH | <[freedom]> Where is the ZealOS documentation project? |
|---|
| JALH | There is a /lot/ of documentation of all the functions in the |
|---|
| header |
| JALH | linux 2.4 has some limited documentation of the core functions |
|---|
| etc, but this was only added in a general format in 2.[34] |
| JALH | Zealos was designed from ground-up with a kernel documentor |
|---|
| that produces a text-file atm of all the important functions, and what they |
| require, args they take, etc.. |
| JALH | <gcc> Is your System Supporting any Window Manager like |
|---|
| Gnome? |
| JALH | Nope, nothing like that atm, however I think that the way to go is |
|---|
| a display driver API in module form, A general interface API, with some layers |
| to filter down to specific drivers in the kernel |
| #linux |
| JALH | <FloodeR> Do you have any network support? |
|---|
| JALH | Nope, someone is interested in writing the networking |
|---|
| parts of the kernel though :-) |
| JALH | <[freedom]> What is the default fs of this OS? |
|---|
| JALH | Nothing really atm, there's some ext2 code in there, but |
|---|
| it doesn't do much yet ;> |
| JALH | it's pretty high up our to-do list |
|---|
| JALH | There's not going to be a zealfs though, there's enough good |
|---|
| fs' out there atm, so it would just get whipped :) |
| JALH | think reiser, ext[234], xfs, ... |
|---|
| off) |
| JALH | Mailing list is used for devel atm, as there are no lusers to worry |
|---|
| about :-) |
| JALH | (there is nothing to luse) |
|---|
| JALH | :) |
|---|
| JALH | <[freedom]> Now, around of the OS exists many util for this |
|---|
| support, what |
| JALH | about this? |
|---|
| JALH | Well, there's lots of opensource apps around, that work on just |
|---|
| about anything, so I doubt they'll be a lack of apps for zealos, when zealos |
| supports apps... ;) |
| JALH | any last questions or ones that you think I've tried to avoid? |
|---|
| JALH | <erikm> JALH: why doesn't the zealos mascot look as cute as |
|---|
| tux? ;) |
| * JALH shoots erikm ;> |
| JALH | it would just turn itself and knock tux out of the way |
|---|
| JALH | well, *I* like it :P |
|---|
| JALH | <rapha> Mark, what about the execution of 'foreign' binary |
|---|
| code? |
| * rapha likes the mascot |
| JALH | I'm assuming you mean linux elf etc.. ? |
|---|
| rapha | yes |
|---|
| JALH | again, could be done via a module, though I'd doubt anyone |
|---|
| would want to write a module to allow doze .exe's to run.. |
| JALH | (The 'native' system will be ELF) |
|---|
| JALH | <rapha> Another question you will probably answer like this, but |
|---|
| a bit more |
| JALH | wierd ... would it be possible to have ZealOS read a |
|---|
| configuration |
| JALH | file upon boot, then have it deciding wether the boot will |
|---|
| be in |
| JALH | text modus, or with a nice picture? |
|---|
| JALH | That would be very cool, something like the linux fb thing |
|---|
| JALH | again, just a module that it would load near the beginning of |
|---|
| start-up :-) |
| JALH | <[freedom]> Can i take adventage of the VM for the develop of |
|---|
| Zeal? |
| JALH | I develop it in both plex and on my test-box, I usially test on plex |
|---|
| first, as it gives better debugging info |
| JALH | no ZML yet tho;( |
|---|
| JALH | <viXard> is there any intetion to port ZealOS to other |
|---|
| architecture ? |
| JALH | Yes :-) |
|---|
| JALH | It should be very easy to port, as most of the code is generic as |
|---|
| opposed to arch-dependant |
| JALH | It's designed to have the minimum arch-specific code |
|---|
| JALH | <LarstiQ> JALH: How about Rik van Riel's VM subsystem |
|---|
| project, will you be |
| JALH | able to use that ? |
|---|
| JALH | Should be possible, I don't know enough about how it works, I'd |
|---|
| think it would take quite a bit of modification to run on zealos though, as it is |
| designed differently |
| JALH | <rapha> Hardware drivers. How hard would it be to port all of |
|---|
| linux' hardware |
| JALH | support to ZealOS-modules? |
|---|
| JALH | It would be difficult |
|---|
| JALH | but not impossible |
|---|
| rapha | could you go a bit deeper into this? |
|---|
| JALH | :) |
|---|
| rapha | (do we have the time?) |
|---|
| JALH | Well, the linux design philosophy is that you design for a |
|---|
| monolithic arch |
| JALH | as linux always has been and always will be monolithic |
|---|
| rapha | + |
|---|
| JALH | Also, the API's are different, so doubtless there would be quite a |
|---|
| lot of simple things to change |
| JALH | but they're not so dissimilar |
|---|
| JALH | <gcc> What about Security? |
|---|
| JALH | We've got that sussed at the moment by not having a |
|---|
| luser-space |
| JALH | but I doubt we can go on like that forever ;( |
|---|
| JALH | I think secirity is mostly a user-space problem, sure, you can |
|---|
| have hooks in-kernel and extra security checks etc.. |
| JALH | implimented by guess what.. a module ;> |
|---|
| JALH | <[freedom]> I insist, if you have modules, is possible the support |
|---|
| for |
| JALH | processors like PowerPC... |
|---|
| JALH | <[freedom]> Cisc or Risc Archit |
|---|
| JALH | Yep, it's designed with portability in mind |
|---|
| JALH | <viXard> So, ZealOS will be on the wilde sooner than Hurd ? |
|---|
| JALH | TBH, I don't think hurd will ever make it, I don't know of anyone |
|---|
| developing it now |
| JALH | It's just got too big and complexed, when the design philosophy |
|---|
| of zealos it to be small :-) |
| JALH | hm, I think that's the end :-) |
|---|
| > 4plas 5plas 6plas 7plas 8plas 9plas 10plas 11plas 12plas 13plas 1plas 2plas 3plas |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| FloodeR | Plas plas plas plas plas plas |
|---|
| FloodeR | Plas plas plas plas plas plas |
|---|
| FloodeR | Plas plas plas plas plas plas |
|---|
| [freedom] | :) |
|---|
| fernand0 | plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas |
|---|
| fernand0 | plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas |
|---|
| FloodeR | splas plas splas plas splas |
|---|
| FloodeR | splas plas splas plas splas |
|---|
| fernand0 | plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas |
|---|
| FloodeR | splas plas splas plas splas |
|---|
| > bravooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
| fernand0 | plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas |
|---|
| JALH | hehe, thanks :-) |
|---|
| > bravooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
| > viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva |
| > viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva |
| > viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva viva |
| Drizzt | plas |
|---|
| Drizzt | plas |
|---|
| Drizzt | plas |
|---|
| jdejesusb | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
|---|
| FloodeR | XD |
|---|
| day cure!) |
| FloodeR | XDD |
|---|
| [freedom] | muchas gracias :)) |
|---|
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| JALH | no probs :-) |
|---|
| [freedom] | la conferecia estuvo de pk |
|---|
| hensema_ | nice talk, JALH |
|---|
| [freedom] | :) |
|---|
| > the people are still trasnlating in #redes, a moment |
| FloodeR | I think that its great, but too much work jet :) |
|---|
| JALH | :) |
|---|
| viXard | jje |
|---|
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| * JALH makes a file of the speach |
| gcc | clap clap clap clap |
|---|
| Kefar | plas plas plas plas |
|---|
| Kefar | plas plas plas plas |
|---|
| Kefar | plas plas plas plas |
|---|
| Oroz | congrats JALH |
|---|
| Desconoci | aqui es la conferencia? |
|---|
| fernand0 | desc: era |
|---|
| > ha sido |
| Ramon | very well :-) |
|---|
| fernand0 | well I suppose we can continue talking here if you feel |
|---|
| inclined |
| Desconoci | y cuando es la proxima? |
|---|
| fernand0 | mañana |
|---|
| FloodeR | Bueno, yo me tengo que ir! |
|---|
| > very very hard work !!! |
| FloodeR | Mañana mas |
|---|
| > congratulations Jalh |
| JALH | thanks all :) |
|---|
| JALH | yeah |
|---|
| gcc | keep Working!!! |
|---|
| JALH | :) |
|---|
| Desconoci | fue hace una hora? |
|---|
| fernand0 | si |
|---|
| > si, recien acaba....... lo siento |
| > well too tired Jahl ? |
| choong | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
|---|
| choong | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
|---|
| JALH | hm? |
|---|
| JALH | hey choong :) |
|---|
| choong | heya :) |
|---|
| > JALH, are you sure it was your first conference ???? |
| choong | havent read your speech yet |
|---|
| choong | I was trying to get some sleep but couldn't sleep |
|---|
| Desconoci | ustedes podrian poner el horario en gmt, por favor |
|---|
| JALH | MJesus, yep |
|---|
| Desconoci | o es mejor si envio un correo |
|---|
| (BitchX: it adds that extra uNF to your sex life!) |
| choong | I'll check it out tomorrow ;) |
|---|
| JALH | ohh |
|---|
| JALH | zealos irc channel is on openprojects.net, #zealos |
|---|
| JALH | :) |
|---|
| JALH | :-) |
|---|
| > please read the web: you have the hours in every big and regular city |
| of the whole wolrd |
| [freedom] | :) |
|---|
| gcc | where are you from JALH? |
|---|
| choong | :) |
|---|
| JALH | gcc, England |
|---|
| Desconoci[64.76.59.204]: EOF from client) |
| viXard | Desconoci: hay un menu de horario en la pagina del |
|---|
| programa del congreso |
| Vincent | veri good conference |
|---|
| viXard | ummmm, where are logs published ? |
|---|
| viXard | zuez ? |
|---|
| botijo | zuez es probablemente just relaying vizard words :) |
|---|
| fernand0 | umeet.uninet.edu/ |
|---|
| JALH | ah, are you doing a log ? |
|---|
| fernand0 | yep |
|---|
| gcc | JalH, What do you think about this kind of Conference by irc? |
|---|
| fernand0 | we publish the logs on our web |
|---|
| rapha | fernand0: url? |
|---|
| fernand0 | umeet.uninet.edu |
|---|
| * rapha looks |
| JALH | gcc, well, I could never have done that in real life, so I guess |
|---|
| they're good :) |
| * JALH too ;> |
| fernand0 | jalh's is not there yet |
|---|
| JALH | ok |
|---|
| Klauss | Hola a todos!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|---|
| Klauss | gracias !!!!!!!! |
|---|
| End of #linux buffer Wed Dec 05 23:15:42 2001 |
|
