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Presentation

Programa

Desarrollo

Start of #linux buffer: Fri Dec 07 00:06:46 2001
fernand0	well
fernand0	let mi cover this gap
fernand0	saying some words about our speaker
fernand0	:)
* Borja blushes
fernand0	who loves these things called er ... something BSD
fernand0	and also other high end topics in computer science
fernand0	he words for an importan ISP in Spain
fernand0	and we are very grateful about this talk
fernand0	because, even he always has time for UniNet,
fernand0	he is a really busy, busy man
fernand0	Of course
fernand0	we also would like to give thanks to all of you
fernand0	for comming here
fernand0	and we apologize for this small delay
fernand0	in a few moments, the talk will start
Borja	Well, this talk will be in the standard language of science,
Borja_	The worm strikes back
Borja	that is, Bad English.
Borja	Sorry, go on :-)
Borja_	Abstract
Borja_	On November 2, 1988 a worm was released into the Internet
Borja_	network. The worm, which spread among Sun and VAX computers
Borja_	running Unix, caused a major disruption to the net. The
Borja_	Unix systems.
Borja_	After the incident, many important lessons were learned.
Borja_	However, most of these lessons are overlooked by software
Borja_	designers who write software with the same type of problems
Borja_	exploited by the worm and, worse, offers stupid functionalities
Borja_	that severely compromise security.
Borja_	Nowadays Internet is no longer an academic network, and while
Borja_	it is becoming a service as important as the telephone network,
Borja_	the security of the network seen as the set of computers
Borja_	connected to it is in a much worse situation: most of the
Borja_	computers run the same operating system, and the system
Borja_	diversity has decreased.
Borja_	To make things even worse, cheap broadband access is becoming
Borja_	available for households in most developed countries, making
Borja_	home computers available to launch large scale attacks.
Borja_	What is happening today?
Borja_	News stories about computer breakins are becoming commonplace.
Borja_	Connecting a computer to the network is indeed risky. An
Borja_	intruder can be anywhere. Attacking a computer round the
Borja_	corner is as difficult and cheap as attacking a computer
Borja_	in the antipodes. Hence, the number of potencial attackers
Borja_	is very high.
Borja_	Recent incidents just shown the potential of a large-scale
Borja_	automated attack. Worms such as the Code Red saga or Nimda
Borja_	disabled hundreds of thousands of computers worldwide.  Compromised
Borja_	computers had to be desconnected from the network, although
Borja_	some of them are still active looking for new victims.
Borja_	These incidents not only affected directly vulnerable computers
Borja_	running Microsoft operating systems; many sites with low
Borja_	bandwidth links or low capacity servers and firewalls were
Borja_	overloaded by the high number of compromised computers scanning
Borja_	the networks for new vulnerable computers. A large number
Borja_	of small sites suffered a severe denial of service during
Borja_	the peak hours of propagation, and even big sites suffered
Borja_	some performance problems in network equipment, being firewalls
Borja_	the most vulnerable. Logfiles in webservers algo grew much
Borja_	larger than usual, leading to storage problems.
Borja_	The latest incidents have been the culmination of a worrying
Borja_	trend we saw with Melissa, the first worm released after
Borja_	the November 1988 one was "ILOVEYOU".
Borja_	It exploited the presence of a programming language in the
Borja_	Microsoft Office suite applications, and propagated with
Borja_	infected Microsoft Word documents. When a user opened a
Borja_	document, the macros present in the document used the Outlook
Borja_	API to send copies of itself to contacts listed in the user's
Borja_	addressbook.
Borja_	The damage done by this simple worm was huge. Many organizations
Borja_	had their mailservers completely overloaded, with the email
Borja_	service stopped until they cleaned the servers.
Borja_	This incident was possible because of two main factors:
Borja_	First, thanks to the monopolistic tactics applied by Microsoft,
Borja_	most home and office computers use the same application
Borja_	software and operating system. In this case, Microsoft Office
Borja_	and the different versions of Microsoft Windows. Hence the
Borja_	number of potentially vulnerable computers was very high.
Borja_	Vulnerable computers were used by people with little or
Borja_	no knowledge on computer security.
Borja_	Second, Microsoft software designers had been ignoring the
Borja_	most elementary security measures in their developments.
Borja_	There is a worrying trend in software development. New versions
Borja_	offer no real innovations, and software manufacturers tend
Borja_	to overload programs with stupid and useless functionality
Borja_	just to add "value".
Borja_	These so-called innovations are always added without paying
Borja_	attention to security. Adding complexity to a program, even
Borja_	paying the due attention to security, increases the risk
Borja_	of introducing a security flaw. But many of the features
Borja_	recently added to mainstream systems and application software
Borja_	have serious design flaws.
Borja_	For example, adding a full-fledged programming language to
Borja_	a word processor does not seem very useful, but it is a
Borja_	great tool for spreading worms. People routinely exchange
Borja_	text documents. "Intelligent"
Borja_	behavior pervades the Window operating system, too. Just
Borja_	remember the recent "Nimda"
Borja_	worm, spreading thanks to a flaw in the handling of some
Borja_	MIME attachments. The routine responsible for opening a
Borja_	file in Internet Explorer tries to determine the type of
Borja_	file by looking at its contents, ignoring the MIME type
Borja_	associated to it. It can seem useful, as it can hide user
Borja_	and/or programmer mistakes, but in this case an executable
Borja_	sent with an audio MIME type circumvented all the pseudo-security
Borja_	checks implemented in Outlook. This was also a serious violation
Borja_	of a fundamental practice in programming: correct modularization.
Borja_	The situations seems to go from bad to worse. One of the
Borja_	conclusions drawn from the 1988 worm was that diversity
Borja_	is good, and can be essential for the surviblity of the
Borja_	communications infrastructure. This is the same issue identified
Borja_	recently in the debate about animal clonation. A population
Borja_	of cloned sheeps could die should they be genetically vulnerable
Borja_	to a particular strain of a germ. If we infect two specimens
Borja_	in good health with the same germ, one of them can die while
Borja_	the other survives. It is a matter of genetic vulnerability.
Borja_	Exactly the same happens with operating systems. If we consider
Borja_	(hypotetically, of course) all operating systems equally
Borja_	secure -hence equally insecure-, it would be possible to
Borja_	develop an automated attack program, perhaps a worm, capable
Borja_	of affecting most of the system installations. What will
Borja_	happen if every users run *the same* operating system? Then
Borja_	the communications infrastructure will be in a high risk.
Borja_	A single worm could make the whole network collapse.
Borja_	The situation is even scarier; there is a trend towards uniformity,
Borja_	as newcomers to the network are using an intrinsecally insecure
Borja_	operating system: Windows. A critical mass of vulnerable
Borja_	systems is being created, and these vulnerable computers
Borja_	will be connected to the networks through broadband links.
Borja_	These computers will be connected 24/7, probably housing
Borja_	personal webservers, etc.
Borja_	A similar trend is being observed in the Unix world, although
Borja_	it is not so dangerous. Many people considering Unix systems
Borja_	for their servers are choosing Linux just because it is
Borja_	what they read in the media. This is an error. Obviously
Borja_	Unix systems are not intrinsecally insecure, although programming
Borja_	mistakes have been the cause of security problems in the
Borja_	past, and will also cause security problems in the future.
Borja_	Which future can we expect? Is Internet about to be shut
Borja_	down by vandals? Is there any hope? Well, I think there
Borja_	is a real risk here. Many people will connect to the network
Borja_	in the coming years. The newcomers will not be trained on
Borja_	computer security at all, and it seems that they will use
Borja_	Windows systems.
Borja_	The worms and viruses we have seen so far are not very sophisticated.
Borja_	Most of them are programs designed only to replicate, causing
Borja_	only collateral damage (significant, unfortunately). Nothing
Borja_	has been done to steal codes, credit-card numbers, etc.
Borja_	Worms have been extremely noisy. The propagation of the
Borja_	worms has caused denial of service problems in many networks,
Borja_	and the worms have been really noticed. However, the scenario
Borja_	of a silent worm propagating at a slow pace during months
Borja_	is not unlikely, and the results would be devastating.
Borja_	We can do something to prevent this. First of all, we must
Borja_	avoid uniformity. When planning a network design, always
Borja_	avoid adopting the same operating system for everything.
Borja_	Use a mix of them. No operating system is equal to the others;
Borja_	even Unix systems have noticeable differences among them.
Borja_	For each task, use the system best suited for it.
Borja_	Another problem is the current software monopoly situation;
Borja_	it must be fighted at all costs. It has almost killed innovation
Borja_	in the industry, as no company can try to introduce a new
Borja_	operating system. Microsoft has exclusive agreements with
Borja_	every PC computer manufacturers. the situation is serious
Borja_	indeed: people buying computers "withut
Borja_	an operating system" (this means without
Borja_	a Microsoft operating system, but this is one of the effects
Borja_	of monopolies) are treated as suspicious of software piracy.
Borja_	And the main battlefield here is education. We must make
Borja_	sure that students learn the fundamental principles. Nowadays,
Borja_	fashion dictates that computer science students must learn
Borja_	to use mainstream systems. Most of them are not proficient
Borja_	in proper data structures and algorithms design. Most of
Borja_	them don't know about operating systems design. Without
Borja_	foundation, it is impossible to have a good knowledge, and
Borja_	a professional with no solid knowledge is a bad professional.
Borja_	Bad professionals will only ensure that the present problems
Borja_	will be worse in the future.
Borja_	THE END
fernand0	plasplaspl plasplasplasplas
Kefar	plas plas plas plas plas
Dr_Q	clap clap clap clap
Dr_Q	clap clap clap clap
niyul	bravo!!!!!
Dr_Q	very interesting indeep
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kiwnix	plas plas plas
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dardhal	"Education is key" <<-- that is the important thing. Great.
kiwnix	clap clap clap
> a moment , Borja is traslating in #redes to spanish
> and hi have a delay....
> a moment
> very good Borja !!!
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limitations)
fernand0	plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas
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Oroz	plas ...
Oroz	:)
fernand0	eso pareció mas una bofetada
> <sarnold> borja_ thank you; some thoughts .. when most
programs designed to perform a function, ftpd, smtpd, etc, the clear majority
fall prey to the same problems .. how can diversity truly help?
Borja	Sorry... I was answering in #qc :-)
> <Borja> Hi
> <hensema_> Borja: what's your opinion on the recently
released Evolution email-client, which is -- at least in appearance -- similar to
Microsoft Outlook?
> <sarnold> Borja_, furthermore, true completely seperate
implementation diversity is *expensive* .. there are really only a few good mail
clients out there .. implementing more is way too much work!
Borja	Well, different implementations are not usually vulnerable to the
same flaws, or, at least, to the same exploits.
Borja	You shouldn't bet all your money to the same horse, I think... ;-)
diva	chao a todos
diva	que la pacen bien
Borja	Next?
Borja	regarding the appearance of Evolution, I don't think it is an
issue. Outlook is a bad program from the security point of view. I don't use it,
so I cannot comment on other issues ;-)
Borja	I am using Kmail right now and I want to try Evolution.
#linux
Dr_Q	now
Dr_Q	after this conference
Dr_Q	i have clear
#linux
Dr_Q	what are the main causes about
Dr_Q	the insecure at internet but...
Borja	<leonardop> Borja... thanks for your interesting talk. Just for
curiosity, what's your favorite BSD OS? and why?
dardhal	Another "single point of failure" on today's Internet is DNS
root servers, many of them using some version of BIND, which is scary
Borja	Well, my favourite version of BSD is FreeBSD. I use PCs and it
seems to be the best optimized for PCs.
Dr_Q	isnt there other solucions but education to improve security?
Borja	Yes, it is a single point of failure but if it is not excuted in the
*same* operating system, at least it would be a daunting task to take over most
DNS servers. If all of them were running exactly the same, we would be at a
real risk.
Borja	Education is critical in this case. This is related to a similar
problem affecting society in general, the lack of scientific culture.
sarnold	dr_q -- a massive help would be to switch to more type-safe
languages ...
dardhal	Borja: correct, but maybe you don't want more than taking the
servers down, and halt the Interet as a whole :(
Dr_Q	x
Dr_Q	sarnold: thank you
#linux
Bacchus[brutus.conectiva.com.br]: EOF from client)
Borja	People can be easily deceived by someone using some
scientific words. Take, for example, homeopathy. many people think that it is
legitimate. With some scientific culture you can see for yourself that its claims
are absurd
Borja	There are many risks now, sarnold. Someone may want to take
the net down. Someone may want to compromise as many computers as
possible to get valuable information. It has happened...
Dr_Q	the only secure computer is the unplugged computer :-)
Borja	Yes, but today an unplugged computer is just a pile of metal
and sand.
LarstiQ	van Eck phreaking et al, make that the demolished computer
Borja	:-)
#linux
Borja	Next?
JAZZANOVA	here it is spoken about the education, that is
fundamental without a doubt, but what we do to spread it, to foment it?
Borja	Well, university teachers must make sure that students learn
computer science, not how to use a visual programming toolkit, a frequent
mistake.
STAR[shine.cmw.sld.cu])
g/ <-- php developer? hop on in ....)
Borja	All of us can make a difference. I am sure many of you have
friends who ask for help.
Borja	You can educate them.
JAZZANOVA	thanks
Borja	And I don't think type-safe languages will alone fix the problem.
Borja	I agree that C is not the best language for all the tasks for which
it is used now. But it is great for systems programming.
velco	especially when people just keep using old-fashined C ...
from client)
Borja	But buffer overflows are not the only kind of security flaws.
There is a more dangerous kind, derived from interactions between programs.
fernand0	well there is an aforism i read somewhere
fernand0	choose any language
fernand0	and you can find a 'hacker' doing assembler in that
language
fernand0	hehe
Borja	I mean, of course wiping buffer overflows wouls make our lives
easier, but it is not a silver bullet.
Borja	Yes, it is true :-)
Borja	And this kind of things bring us to my obsession... E D U C A T I
O N
Borja	Students are exposed to really bad influences.
-- Accept no limitations)
Borja	They are growing among poorly designed programs.
fernand0	discipline an order are not well considered features
Borja	How many of you have used a non-Windows or non-Unix
operating system?
Borja	(And non-MSDOS, of course)?
fernand0	macos ?
fernand0	hehe
fernand0	pre-X, of course
pdp	as400
JAZZANOVA	beos :)
Borja	Sorry, I mea "non-mainstream"
dardhal	Linux-only for some time :)
Borja	:-)
fernand0	i supposed it, but wanted to joke
Borja	VSTA? Amoeba? Plan 9? Inferno?
Borja	Anyone?
leonardop	non-Unix? I mean... there's a non-Unix OS out there? :-)
Borja	ErOS?
sarnold	(heh, don't say that loud enough for The Open Group to hear
you.. :)
sarnold	borja -- EROS! I've not yet booted it, but I've read all the docs
:)
pdp	os/360//390  for instance
fernand0	vms ?
Borja	Yes, but I am thinking about systems with new ideas:-)
fernand0	it was mainstream hehe
Borja	VMS... the previous work of the artist who perpetrated NT...
fernand0	well
Borja	Vomit Making System, as Richard Stallman used to call it years
ago
fernand0	i read somewhere that they are proud of it, at digital 0:)
sarnold	yeah, but RMS removed the wheel check from 'su', so ... :)
Eliz	saludos a todos!
Borja	Well, VMS was stable. I just didn't like it
kiwnix	HURD is a non-unix?
fernand0	well, mos unices are, aren't they?
Borja	But Windows NT is a piece of crap. id any of you read the
special issue of "IEEE Computer" covering Windows NT?
Borja	It was similar to a PC magazine. Horrible
fernand0	business are business
Dr_Q	i think windows is more secure than linux
Borja	Really?
viXard	Borja, what about theres an stadarized OS like happened with
C language
Dr_Q	juer, say that have caused me a stomach-ache
sarnold	Dr_Q -- for kicks, sometime, head to securityfocus.com, look
for the bugtraq archives, and look for the advisories from any single linux
vendor, and any single microsoft vendor (heh heh) and do some counting... :)
Dr_Q	Borja: no, i was joking again
viXard	would this be a really problem ?
Borja	:-)
Dr_Q	i use debian for a long time ago, and from then i dont know
what a antivirus is
fernand0	it is not secure, it is sure that IT professionals will get more
money securign it :)
viXard	Borja, what about theres an stadarized OS like happened with
C language, would it be a disaster ?
Borja	viXard, I don't think so. I mean, standardization affects APIs and
command syntax, but there are many different CPUs out there.
Eliz[169.158.164.136])
velco	sarnold: in fact, IIRC CERT has such lies, damned lies and
statistics, which show similar number of vulnerabilities in Linux and Doze
sarnold	velco, which just goes to show that, for some set of rules,
windows isn't moer secure than linux :)
velco	sure.
Borja	But those vulnerabilities are different indeed.
vulnerabilties wide open :)
sorts of odd behaviors in Windows, like that stupid routine in IE that tries to
determine the type of a file by its contents instead of using the MIME type.
dardhal	sarnold: so we come to the point Borja talked about,
education (both users' education and vendors' education)
Borja	This sord of confusion is bad, it is serious. I don't see this in
Unix.
Borja	Of course there are minor programming mistakes, but most of
them are fixed with at most a 100 line patch.
Dr_Q	ive notice that my level of english have been getting lower and
lower :-(
> some data.... Borja: Message Labs estimate that que en 1999 la
relacion virus / messaje mail ratio was 1/1400 during 1999. At 2000 year, this
ratio was 1/700 and probably will be 1/300 en 2001. Also we have spam...
indeed, do you think that the email have a good future?
Borja	Which is the size of a Windows fix? I am not talking about the
size of the service packs, but have a look at the very nature of the flaws.
Borja	Do you think they are similar?
viXard	Borja, what about those people that are technitians but don´t
know anything about MIME type and networks structures. Are they helpless ?
Borja	Well, email is the most important Internet service. It is funny,
considering that its designers didn't think it would be used at all..
fernand0	what about .Net ?
fernand0	how will go things there ?
Borja	Well, the security of Passport has already been compromised ;-)
pdp	it is also the most Mis-used service on the Internet
fernand0	hehe
Borja	.Net is a real risk.
Borja	Even the Gartner Group says it!
fernand0	some experts said that it was not so bad
sarnold	pdp has a good point .. the fact that emails have 'attachments'
demonstrates that distributed filesystems for the most part need work
Borja	Fernand0, if you believe in diversity you don't belieeve in .Net
or any similar iniciative.
fernand0	that's true
viXard	What about privacy security, is there a way to keep my privacy
from the owner of the service ?
lack of attention to security... would you trust it?
Borja	Yes, viXard, strong cryptography, fortunately available for all of
us.
Borja	Have a look at the Phil Zimmerman's pages in MIT.
viXard	what abut LSSI ?
Borja	PGP has saved lives of people under dictatorships
Borja	Well, I think the golverment knows nothing about Internet. They
have to learn...
Borja	LSSI has some good points, but unfortunately it has very
danbgerous points.
Borja	Anyway it won't pass. It is against the constitution.
viXard	Spanish Constitution
Borja	Yes, I forgot it :-)
viXard	what about the rest of europe and the world ?
Borja	(I'm Spanish)
for being a country with great civil freedom, despite their claims.
dardhal	Borja: Spanish LSSI prerelease3 does have major changes
with respect to the original version.
viXard	US have released new laws that permits authorities to look
under our dresses ;)
Borja	I know, but have not read the 0.33 version.
#linux
viXard	solo 5 mins
dardhal	Borja: it is far from perfect, but is a major advance with repect
to the original one
viXard	If Kriptopolis moved their servers to US away from LSSI, then
they must be back running away fron new US laws XD
viXard	Is an endless running
dardhal	viXard: jeje, what kriptopolis did is something still not
explained
viXard	jej
viXard	they are going to end on south pole
dardhal	viXard: a good place to overclock Athlons :)
viXard	or inside a submarine called Nautilus
viXard	yeah !
viXard	they can make a conection to chile XD
Borja	Mars? :-)
Borja	Or perhaps with a wireless link to a backpack!
Borja	:-)
viXard	jeje
sarnold	borja -- one still needs to find an uplink, which can be tough..
viXard	yeah, The moon is american
dardhal	viXard: the submarine could be attacked by a huge and
horrid slow-moving species called Mozilla XDD
viXard	damn right
Borja	Anyway, I don't think it will be so hard.
SKARLET[169.158.164.157])
viXard	what about self-implanted worms?
pdp	just eat a Burger....
viXard	administrators that are unconfortable with their companies and
write their own worms
sarnold	heh, protecting against upset administrators can be pretty
tough :)
Borja	It is just the same old problem with internal security.
Borja	Almost impossible, depending on the resources available ;-)
Oroz	keep the administrator comfortable...
viXard	je
viXard	no way to do it XD
CTCP TROUT THIS, BITCH!)
sarnold	sure .. have the OS and applications require N identical
actions from N different administrators before any changes can be made
Borja	Anyone with responsibility can cause a lot of damage. What
about excutives?
Borja	Yes, but it is expensive. You need complex systems to do that.
Borja	That's why I say "depending on available resources" :-)
sarnold	ayup :)
sarnold	it was important enough that nuclear command and control
systems were designed that way ..
dardhal	Borja: "common sense" seems to be a scarce resource,
specially at many Spanish companies :(
sarnold	but you will note that WinNT/XP was *not* designed that way,
and .. to the best of my knowledge, no Unix systems either :)
sarnold	dardhal: s/Spanish//
dardhal	sarnold: but here the situation seems even worse, we are
some years behind in everything
Borja	No, but Unix has a simpler dsign, and it is a plus.
dardhal	sarnold: including "common sense"
Borja	I don't think so, dardhal
Borja	True, there are fewer Internet users than in USA. And so?
dardhal	Borja: not talking about users, but about "corporate
computing"
Borja	Problems are similar in USA and in Spain in corporations
Dr_Q	dardhal its worse in other country like Cuba, where access to
internet is censured
dardhal	Dr_Q: sure, but we are talking about places were "freedom"
is not a primary concern, because you "have it"
Dr_Q	i agree
Borja	Anyway, we should not get it for granted. Now and then
someone will try to limit our freedom.
Borja	Look at what is happening now.
viXard	yeah
viXard	kill the bastards XD
sarnold	heh, you don't have to put up with .us's ashcroft :)
Borja	We have our own ashcrofts here...
sarnold	oh; I'm sorry to hear that :(
dardhal	Borja: but many people think lack of freedom is when you are
put into jail, not before. There is no "critical mass" of people concerned about,
for example, what is going on in the USA
sarnold	I figured the EU countries were generally more sane...
Dr_Q	well, good night to everybody
Borja	dardhal, I think many people here are concerned indeed
dardhal	sarnold: Europe is like The Matrix, nobady can tell what it is :(
Dr_Q	i promise to pratice my english to improve it :-)
Borja	Yes, sarnold, but there are crazy politicians all over the world
viXard	darhal: jeje
dardhal	Borja: one think is to be concerned about facts, and the other
about what some political parties and social groups want you to believe
Borja	Well, what is your opinion on my Bad English? ;-)
dardhal	Borja: not bas, excelent english
dardhal	s/bas/bad/
viXard	how many people in here don´t speal spanish ?
Dr_Q	your english is very bueno
Dr_Q	:-)
Borja	Of course, we are lucky. This conversation is actually taking
place!
viXard	my vocabulary is going down XD
Dr_Q	and mine
Borja	:-)
sarnold	viXard -- 'hola', 'como te lama', 'bueno', are about all my
spanish :)
Dr_Q	some time ago, i used to practice english every day
viXard	i don´t know how to say "glutamato de potasio "
Dr_Q	sarnold: using that words you can build a lot of phrases
dardhal	Dr_Q: I'm sure you read much more english pages a day
than in spanish
sarnold	donde esta el banos .. :)
Dr_Q	dardhal: yes
sarnold	(I can't find the n~ key on my keyboard :)
Dr_Q	but its different understands what you read that try to write in
english what a have in my mind
Oroz	sarnold: una cerveza por favor?
sarnold	groz, jejej :)
Dr_Q	bye
Dr_Q	;-)
Oroz	usually everbody knows the meaning of that
viXard	going back to tiranosaurious species......
sarnold	'night Dr_Q
viXard	what about that meeting about cybercrimen just few days ago ?
viXard	what´s was the real declaration of that ?
Borja	Well, I think cybercrime must be fught
Borja	(fought)
dardhal	viXard: it was signed, approved by some countries, and
about to generate country-wide laws to enforce it
Borja	I mean, we need freedom. But nobody needs freedom to
damage others.
viXard	but they "way " they apply those laws, is what matters me
viXard	i´m more paranoic about authorities than about crackers
Borja	I am paranoid about both
viXard	or a damn stupid script kiddie
dardhal	viXard: this treaty about cybercrime says little about
punishment, but talks a great deal about "ISP collaborating with authorities to
gather data an evidences"
Borja	But crackers, even the lamest of the script kiddies, are limiting
our trust on communication networks.
Oroz	'nigh *
But then again, who does?)
viXard	I was readind few weeks ago, "the hacker crackdown", and
there was a lot of abuses against people
Borja	I agree with you, and we need well-thought laws.
Borja	But, as there is a law that protects you from being stolen, raped
or killed, there should be one protecting your email
viXard	FBI and USSS were a real pain in the ass, for every BBS owner
Borja	I know. It was very bad done, indeed. They knew nothing
(Aplicación Saliendo)
viXard	but they don´t acuse you for rober at least they have proves
JAZZANOVA	anyone knows about "Linterna Mágica" ? i dont know
the real name...
viXard	instead of cybercrime, they asume that as you know computer
stuff, you´re dangerous
Borja	It is a cultural problem. They must learn.
sarnold	'Magic Lantern'
Borja	If I say I am a supporter of nuclear energy, how many of you will
see an alarm flashing?
sarnold	borja, I've got mixed feelings, for sure ..
dardhal	Borja: nuclear energy is good, is taken seriously
Borja	There are lots of irrational feelings about many subjects. This is
happening with cybercrime among judges, politicians and lawyers, and the
society in general.
#linux
viXard	peoples rights are are subvaluated
dardhal	viXard: people are not aware of their rights, and so they don't
fight for them
viXard	my mailbox was digged out whithout my knowlegde, and
without no authority permission
viXard	just because a suspicious
viXard	where did I should go?
viXard	nowhere! nobody´s deffending my rights against that
Borja	That should be punished, of course.
sarnold	viXard -- run your own ISP :)
Borja	Anyway, no court would accept it as a proof
viXard	laws don´t consider this as a right
viXard	sarnold, that was at my last job
viXard	people
viXard	http://www.walc2002.pucmm.edu.do/
viXard	El V taller en teconologias de redes e internet para america
latina y el caribe
krUNIX	viZard?
viXard	May 2002
viXard	KrUNIX ?
krUNIX	linuxlatino?
viXard	sep
krUNIX	cool
krUNIX	viniste a la conferencia?
dardhal	It's been a great pleasure to talk with all of you
viXard	PARTICIPANTES EXTRANJEROS
viXard	1.- US$1,300.00 PARA LOS QUE SE INSCRIBAN ANTES DEL 15 DE FEBRERO 2002.
viXard	Incluye participación en el taller seleccionado, alojamiento, desayunos, almuerzos, Refrigerios, Transporte desde el hotel al lugar del evento, Seguro de Hospitalización y Cirugia en caso de accidentes.
viXard	2.- US$1,400.00 PARA LOS QUE SE INSCRIBAN DESPUES DEL 15 DE FEBRERO 2002.
viXard	Incluye participacion en el taller seleccionado, Alojamiento, Desayunos, Almuerzos, Refrigerios, Transporte desde el hotel al lugar del evento, Seguro de Hospitalización y Cirugia en caso de Accidentes.
dardhal	Godd morning/evening/night || Buenos días/tardes/noches
viXard	same, darhal XD
sarnold	dardhal :)
viXard	krUNIX: sip, estaba charlando un poco con el conferencistas y otras personas
krUNIX	aja
krUNIX	pero ya termino la confrencia?
viXard	sep
krUNIX	:(
krUNIX	llegue tarde
krUNIX	los logs los publicaran?
viXard	http://umeet.uninet.edu/umeet2001/spanish/prog.html
Borja	Estarán en el web mañana, supongo
viXard	http://umeet.uninet.edu/umeet2001/spanish/des.html <-- los logs
krUNIX	cool
krUNIX	;)
krUNIX	grax
krUNIX	aja
viXard	me cambio de conexion
wings)
krUNIX	entonces mañana es ataques de DoS
End of #linux buffer Fri Dec 07 00:06:46 2001

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