| riel_ | today I will be giving the opening lecture about spam |
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| riel_ | not only because the kernel is being talked about enough, but also because spam is something which probably annoys every one of you as badly as it annoys me |
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| riel_ | and also because it is a threat to email |
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| riel_ | estimates are that currently between 20% and 40% of all email is spam |
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| riel_ | and there are good reasons to believe that the percentage will keep growing, unless we do something about it |
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| riel_ | so email will become useless as a tool for communication, unless we do something about spam |
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| riel_ | I'll try to cover all aspects of spam in my lecture; I hope everybody will learn something new ;) |
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| riel_ | the lecture is roughly divided into the following sections: |
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| riel_ | 1) what is spam ? |
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| riel_ | 2) spam, free speech and the right to filter |
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| riel_ | 3) ways to detect, block and/or filter spam |
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| riel_ | 4) laws against spam |
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| riel_ | 5) the only way to stop spam |
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| riel_ | 6) questions, answers and discussion |
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| riel_ | ... but of course, if somebody asks a really interesting question in #qc I can always change the lecture a little bit ;) |
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| riel_ | believe it or not, but there is a lot of confusion about what spam is |
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| riel_ | there are a large number of definitions |
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| riel_ | 1) unsollicited commercial email |
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| riel_ | 2) unsollicited bulk email |
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| riel_ | 3) email I don't want |
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| riel_ | 4) ... |
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| riel_ | some of these definitions work, others don't |
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| riel_ | for example "email I don't want" is a bad definition of spam, because it could include email which I _asked_ for |
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| riel_ | but which I no longer want |
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| riel_ | it wouldn't be fair to blame the sender of the mail though, because I asked for the email myself |
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| riel_ | "unsollicited commercial email" has the same problem, because non-profit groups, religious organisations and politicians can easily declare themselves as "non-commercial" |
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| riel_ | so even if the commercial spam stopped, our mailboxes would still be flooded with religious and political spam |
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| riel_ | because of this, I (and many other spam fighters) use the definition "Unsollicited Bulk Email" to describe and identify spam |
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| riel_ | (I'll slow down a bit for the translators in #redes) |
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| riel_ | there is another big issue, "opt-in" vs "opt-out" |
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| riel_ | many spammers just grab email addresses of websites, or of CDs full of email addresses, and start spamming |
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| riel_ | "if people don't want the spam, they can unsubscribe" |
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| riel_ | as we all know, unsubscribing just isn't practical |
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| riel_ | for various reasons |
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| riel_ | 1) if I unsubscribe from one list, can the spammer still send me email "from another list" ? |
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| riel_ | 2) if I unsubscribe from one company, the spammer can just give my email address to all his friends |
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| riel_ | and the problem just gets worse |
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| riel_ | also, "unsubscribe" pages often serve as a way to confirm your email address! |
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| riel_ | "user@domain.be just unsubscribed ... that means a real human reads the address, lets spam him!" |
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| riel_ | just look at the following URL: |
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| riel_ | http://mortgageloans.efektiv.net/unsubscribe.asp |
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| riel_ | it looks like an unsubscribe form ... |
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| riel_ | ... but look at the page title |
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| riel_ | (if you have no web browser, wait for somebody in #qc to tell the page title) |
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| riel_ | <Hirogen2> "User Subscribe Page" |
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| riel_ | yes, that's right |
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| riel_ | the spammer took a subscribe script |
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| riel_ | and changed the name to unsubscribe.php |
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| riel_ | but forgot to change the page title |
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| riel_ | because of this, you should never try to unsubscribe from spam |
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| riel_ | even if it works 90% of the time, the other 10% of the time you've just subscribed to 1000 new spam lists |
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| riel_ | if spam annoys you, you are probably curious to know who exactly sends the spam |
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| riel_ | it turns out that most spam is sent by a very small group of people |
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| riel_ | they are listed in ROKSO, the Register Of Known Spam Operations |
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| riel_ | you can find that list here: |
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| riel_ | http://spamhaus.org/rokso/index.lasso |
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| riel_ | some famous spammers include Alan Ralsky, and Laura Betterly |
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| riel_ | these spammers send out millions of spams every day |
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| riel_ | sometimes hundreds of millions of spams per person |
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| riel_ | they can make a profit because it is very cheap to send spam |
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| riel_ | they sell "spam runs" to advertisers for rates around $250 per 500,000 emails sent |
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| riel_ | and they make a profit on it |
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| riel_ | this makes one wonder how it can be so cheap to send spam |
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| riel_ | buying bandwidth from an ISP is not cheap |
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| riel_ | and almost all ISPs shut down spammers quickly |
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| riel_ | so it should be expensive to send spam, right ? |
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| riel_ | well ... it is |
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| riel_ | so most spammers use SOMEBODY ELSE's computer instead |
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| riel_ | they let somebody else pay for their spam |
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| riel_ | the most often used tricks are open relays and open proxies |
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| riel_ | an open relay is a mail server that accepts mail from anybody and sends it to anybody |
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| riel_ | so you just connect to that server and say |
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| riel_ | "here is a spam, for these 10000 recipients" |
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| riel_ | and the server sends out the spam for the spammer |
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| riel_ | a much more dangerous way is using open proxies |
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| riel_ | many companies have a SOCKS or HTTP proxy on their network |
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| riel_ | but they have it configured badly |
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| riel_ | and allow the whole world to connect everywhere, often also into their internal network |
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| riel_ | in that case, a spammer connects to the SOCKS proxy and from there connects to that company's mail server |
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| riel_ | dumps all the spam into the mail server |
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| riel_ | and the poor mail server has the job of sending out the spam |
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| riel_ | note that the mail server itself is secure, but delivers the spam because the SOCKS proxy is on the same network |
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| riel_ | <dmr_work> riel_: alot of ISPs are cracking down on open relays. |
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| riel_ | indeed dmr_work, because of that many spammers are now using open proxies instead |
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| riel_ | you can even buy software to connect through a "chain" of proxies so you stay anonymous |
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| riel_ | companies like Elcomsoft (the DMCA hero??) sell spam software that does that |
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| riel_ | spammers often defend their spam by saying it is not illegal |
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| riel_ | or even that it is not immorral |
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| riel_ | but if you really ask them, you will know that even spammers hate spam |
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| riel_ | for example, Alan Ralsky bought a $740,000 house a few weeks ago |
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| riel_ | financed from his spam business |
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| riel_ | this was covered in lots of news media, including slashdot.org |
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| riel_ | so some people went searching and found the address of his house |
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| riel_ | then they gave that address to thousands of direct marketing companies |
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| riel_ | who send (paper) bulk mail to Mr Ralsky's house |
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| riel_ | here is the article that covers it: |
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| riel_ | http://www.freep.com/money/tech/mwend6_20021206.htm |
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| riel_ | now, you would think that Alan Ralsky thinks it is only fair that other people are doing to him what he is doing to the rest of the world ... |
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| riel_ | ... but the article shows us: |
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| riel_ | "He says he's asked Bloomfield Hills attorney Robert Harrison to sue the anti-spammers." |
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| riel_ | so let me get this straight: |
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| riel_ | 1) Alan Ralsky thinks it is ok to send out hundreds of millions of spams a day |
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| riel_ | 2) the same Alan Ralsky wants to sue people because he is receiving a few hundred pieces of bulk mail himself |
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| riel_ | somebody is doing something he does not want to happen to himself |
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| riel_ | I think this is immoral |
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| riel_ | of course, "internet marketers" have another excuse for their spam |
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| riel_ | they say it is "free speech" |
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| riel_ | I have to agree that they have the right to say what they want |
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| riel_ | but they can advertise on their website |
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| riel_ | if they do an advertisement, they should pay for it |
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| riel_ | if they send spam to me, _I_ end up paying for their advertisement! |
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| riel_ | also, free speech is something in public areas |
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| riel_ | I have the right to free speech, but I do not have the right to free speech in YOUR GARDEN |
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| riel_ | likewise, spammers a the right to free speech ... but they have no right to free speech on my server, using my disk space |
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| riel_ | on my server _I_ make the rules |
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| riel_ | I do not need to accept email from spammers |
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| riel_ | the same goes for your ISP |
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| riel_ | it is there server, they have no obligation to accept email from anybody they do not have a contract with |
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| riel_ | an email server, or just your mailbox, is PRIVATE PROPERTY |
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| riel_ | it's YOUR mailbox, you are the boss |
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| riel_ | spammers have no right to dump their advertisements in your mailbox |
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| riel_ | <jmgv> but... is not the samething when somebody put some advertisement paper at your traditional mailbox? |
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| riel_ | jmgv, there is a big difference |
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| riel_ | if somebody puts a piece of paper in my mailbox they have to print the piece of paper and pay somebody to deliver it, it doesn't cost me any money |
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| riel_ | but if they send out spam, it is free for them and I pay the cost |
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| riel_ | also, in many countries you can put a "NO JUNK MAIL" sticker on your mailbox, and advertisers are not allowed to deliver junk mail to your mailbox |
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| riel_ | anyway, what all of this means is that we have the RIGHT to decide what email we want to accept and what email we want to deny |
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| riel_ | I am the boss over my mailbox |
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| riel_ | (and over my mail server, another luxury) |
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| riel_ | if I want to reject all email from domains with the letter "x" in it, I have the right to do so |
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| riel_ | not that I would want to use such a silly blocking policy, since I would miss all linux.org email ;) |
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| riel_ | but still, it is my mailbox, so I have the right |
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| riel_ | this brings us to the various ways to block email |
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| riel_ | there are various categories |
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| riel_ | 1) blocking based on content |
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| riel_ | 2) blocking mail from known spammers |
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| riel_ | 3) blocking mail from open proxies & open relays |
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| riel_ | 4) blocking mail from spam friendly ISPs |
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| riel_ | 5) blocking everything, except mail from people you know |
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| riel_ | examples of (1) are spamassassin and bogofilter |
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| riel_ | these programs look at the mail and dump it if it "looks like spam" |
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| riel_ | the most famous example of (2) would be the MAPS RBL |
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| riel_ | which lists spammers |
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| riel_ | another well known list that implements (2) is the SBL, or Spamhaus Block List |
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| riel_ | this list starts by blocking the IP addresses of spammers |
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| riel_ | that means people who reject email from IP addresses in the list won't get email from those spammers |
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| riel_ | however, some ISPs like to play the game of "musical chairs" with the IP addresses of spammers |
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| riel_ | and they keep giving the spammers new IP addresses to evade the lists |
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| riel_ | in that case, the SBL will do two things: |
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| riel_ | 1) grow the netblock to include all the IP addresses the spammer had and the rest of that netblock |
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| riel_ | 2) block the corporate mail server of the ISP, the people responsible for helping the spammer |
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| riel_ | Spamhaus also explains to the ISP's CEO why he can't mail many of his friends any longer |
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| riel_ | at that point the spammer is usually cut off from the network, and the SBL listing can go away ;) |
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| riel_ | method number (3), blocking mail from open proxies and open relays, is probably the most common thing used for building blocklists |
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| riel_ | there must be a dozen of these lists out there, including DSBL (which I help run), MAPS RSS, ORDB, proxies.relays.monkeys.com, opm.blitzed.org and many more |
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| riel_ | the more agressive method of (4), blocking mail from spam friendly ISPs, is less widely used |
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| riel_ | but nontheless, there are a large number of these lists |
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| riel_ | the most well known is probably SPEWS.org |
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| riel_ | <Hirogen2> riel_: another (6)'th method of blocking spam would be checking the email adress. Not very accurate ... |
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| riel_ | Hirogen2: indeed, filters such as spamassassin check the email for things like random-looking email addresses, falsified mail headers, etc... |
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| riel_ | of course, each of those methods has false positives |
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| riel_ | but if you see 5 things wrong in one email, you can be pretty sure it is spam |
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| riel_ | now, how do we measure the effectiveness of a blocklist ? |
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| riel_ | I figure it has to do with a number of things: |
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| riel_ | 1) how much spam am I stopping for myself ? |
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| riel_ | of course, this is a somewhat selfish solution |
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| fernand0 | no lo leerá mucha gente hoy |
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| riel_ | I am not the only one getting spam |
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| riel_ | 2) how long does it take for an ISP to close the open relay or remove the spammer ? |
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| riel_ | in this case, I am reducing the spam for everybody, not just for people who use the block list |
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| riel_ | 3) how many people are using the blocklist ? |
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| riel_ | if a blocklist blocks 99% of the spam, but also 10% of the normal mail, many people will not want to use it because they miss too much of the email they want |
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| riel_ | so maybe a blocklist which blocks 50% of spam, but only 1% of wanted email ends up blocking more spam because many more people use it |
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| riel_ | this means the operators of the blocklists out there all have different goals they want to achieve |
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| riel_ | this is also the reason there are so many, slightly different, block lists out there |
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| riel_ | and everybody can just choose if they want to use a list, or not ... and which lists to use |
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| riel_ | some ISPs have started offering their subscribers the option of configuring their own blocklists |
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| riel_ | so user1@isp.nl can use just an open proxy list, while user2@isp.nl could use SPEWS and verio.blackholes.us |
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| riel_ | <erikm> riel_: blocklists need people with clue about spam. at the university I used to work, they didn't have clue and happily blocked *.br, redhat.com, gnu.org and kernel.org |
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| riel_ | erikm: indeed, people need to be very careful which blocklist they use |
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| riel_ | and also how they use it |
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| riel_ | some people want to force ISPs to quickly shut down spammers and are very agressive in blocking their mail |
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| riel_ | while other people don't care about the amount of spam being sent, as long as they don't see it in their own mailbox and they're not missing any legitimate mail |
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| riel_ | personally I think that having choice is good |
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| riel_ | everybody should choose the blocklist they want |
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| riel_ | of course, no filtering is perfect so you will always get some spam |
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| riel_ | ... which is costing businesses a lot of money, because their employees will end up receiving spam, which costs time |
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| riel_ | because of this, some politicians have started making: |
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| riel_ | (yes, we're at part 4 of the lecture already ;)) |
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| riel_ | politicians have tried various approaches |
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| riel_ | for example, current law in California says that spammers need to tag their email so people can recognise it as spam |
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| riel_ | using "ADV" in their subject |
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| riel_ | of course, spammers from other states don't care |
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| riel_ | and they keep sending out their spams for illegal human growth hormone, illegal debt reduction and completely harmless sugarcubes that are supposed to grow your penis so long that it'll get stuck under your foot |
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| riel_ | since these spammers are sending out advertising for something which is already illegal, they don't care about any spam laws |
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| riel_ | I mean, they've already violated the laws about misleading and defrauding consumers |
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| riel_ | and sometimes various medical laws as well |
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| riel_ | those are all laws which are more serious than a silly spam law |
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| riel_ | also, the police has something more serious to do than go after spammers |
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| riel_ | as a big poster at a sysadmin office says "Calm down, it's just ones and zeroes" |
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| riel_ | the police give priority to crimes where people get harmed, as they well should |
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| riel_ | this means that making spam a criminal offense probably won't achieve much, since the police is busy with more serious things |
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| riel_ | on the other hand, there is a different approach, which I wanted to say (but erikm was quicker) |
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| riel_ | <erikm> riel_: well, depends. state of washington has anti-spam laws which can sue any spammer from any other US state |
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| riel_ | Washington state has a law that allows the person who received the spam to sue the spammer for $500 per spam |
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| riel_ | so even if the police is busy, the spammer will go to court |
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| riel_ | this is a perfect way of making spamming "more expensive" |
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| riel_ | a lot more expensive |
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| riel_ | and remember that the only reason most spammers exist is because spamming costs next to nothing |
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| riel_ | right now they send out 1 million emails for $50 |
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| riel_ | and they make a profit if 40 people (out of 1 million) buy the product |
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| riel_ | now imagine that for those 40 people the spammer also gets 10 latwsuits |
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| riel_ | bye, bye profit |
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| riel_ | this also means they no longer have a reason to spam |
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| riel_ | Debra Bowen, a California State Senator, is planning to introduce a similar law in California |
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| riel_ | she said the following about spam: |
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| riel_ | "You don't have a First Amendment right to print out a piece of |
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| riel_ | advertising on my printer using my computer. That's basically what |
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| riel_ | spam does." -- Debra Bowen, CA State Sen. |
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| riel_ | we're lucky, there ARE politicians who understand the issue |
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| riel_ | I think the European Union also has a good law on spam, a law saying that companies are only allowed to send mail to people who want it (or in other words, opt-in email marketing) |
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| riel_ | the only problem with that law is that there is no financial penalty for spammers, so many of them will just ignore the law as long as it is profitable |
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| riel_ | <dmr_work> riel_: so the point of that is to make a spam law just like a common traffic law? If you speed and get caught, you pay a ticket. I think everyone speeds, no? |
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| riel_ | dmr_work: ahhh, but not everybody spams! |
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| riel_ | only very few people spam |
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| riel_ | Spamhaus estimates that 90% of the spam is sent out by maybe 150 spammers |
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| riel_ | and the other 10% ... well, that's only 10% |
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| riel_ | <chbm> riel: not incorporated into coutry laws, and iirc doesn't say anything about punishment |
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| riel_ | chbm: countries are slowly incorporating the law, but I agree that the lack of punishment is a big problem |
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| riel_ | <Ikarus> the problem is that such a law might become too wide for its own good |
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| riel_ | <Juggler> ... and at the rate spam is increasing, removing those 90% will only make a year or two of difference. :) |
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| riel_ | <Juggler> Riel: are you aware of whether the internet community has made any steps toward implementing a technical solution, such as HashCash? see: http://www.cypherspace.org/~adam/hashcash/ |
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| riel_ | well, I guess this brings us to: |
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| riel_ | we've already shown that filters are not perfect |
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| riel_ | and even if all spam is filtered, 30 to 40% of the email on the servers of big ISPs is still spam |
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| riel_ | so a lot of bandwidth is wasted, and paid for by us |
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| riel_ | to me this suggests one thing: |
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| riel_ | "The only way to stop receiving spam, is to make sure it isn't sent in the first place" |
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| riel_ | now, how do we prevent spam from being sent ? |
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| riel_ | there are a number of things we need to keep in mind |
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| riel_ | first, a spammer needs an ISP to connect to the internet |
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| riel_ | without help from an ISP, a spammer cannot send spam |
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| riel_ | good ISPs disconnect spammers very quickly, within days |
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| riel_ | some very good ISPs have disconnected spammers within minutes |
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| riel_ | for example, Outblaze and XS4ALL are known for quick, effective and painful (j/k) action against their (ex)spammers |
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| riel_ | hosting providers often have a clause where they can confiscate the servers of a spammer when cancelling their account |
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| riel_ | of course, this leaves the bad providers, the ones who help spammers and make our email horrible, the ones who "piss in the pool of email" |
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| riel_ | there are various ways of dealing with these providers |
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| riel_ | one is to just block the provider (or even the whole country!) and hope they go out of business |
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| riel_ | another is to block the provider, but unblock them as soon as they disconnect their spammers |
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| riel_ | this last tactic is used by the people who reject email based on addresses being listed in the SPEWS list |
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| riel_ | as an example here I could mention Rackspace |
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| riel_ | this is a hosting provider, meaning that people can have their own servers in the rackspace network |
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| riel_ | they used to be very bad about spammers and just leave them spamming the internet for months on end |
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| riel_ | they even helped spammers by moving them to a different IP address once the first IP address got blocklisted |
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| riel_ | the end result was that some people just started blocking ALL IP addresses of rackspace, including those of legitimate customers |
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| riel_ | and suddenly rackspace had to choose between keeping their 95% nice customers, or keeping their 5% spammers |
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| riel_ | it took them a few months to clean up |
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| riel_ | and nowadays the amount of spam from their network is pretty low |
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| riel_ | as a last thing against spam, you can let companies know you refuse to buy products from them when they spam |
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| riel_ | so let the marketing department of your supermarket know that you won't buy anything from them if they start using spam |
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| riel_ | this promise is known as the "Boulder Pledge" |
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| riel_ | "Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anything offered to me as the |
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| riel_ | result of an unsolicited e-mail message. Nor will I forward chain letters, |
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| riel_ | petitions, mass mailings, or virus warnings to large numbers of others. |
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| riel_ | This is my contribution to the survival of the online community." - Roger |
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| riel_ | Ebert -- nor will I vote for any candidate who solicits my vote via e-mail. |
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| riel_ | Nick Simicich |
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| riel_ | no wait, this isn't the last thing! |
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| riel_ | one last thing before the questions and answers |
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| riel_ | if your own ISP has a spam problem, talk to them about it |
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| riel_ | you are a customer, they will listen to you |
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| riel_ | for example, the terra.es customers from spain are in this situation |
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| riel_ | terra.es has a big spam problem |
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| riel_ | and if it continues, the chance is good that a large part of the internet will stop accepting email from terra.es |
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| riel_ | any email, at all |
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| riel_ | if you want to prevent that, you should talk to your ISP and make sure the spam is stopped |
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| riel_ | the same goes for everybody else here |
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| riel_ | the only way to stop receiving spam is to prevent it from being sent |
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| riel_ | <jneves> riel_: is there a list of problematic ISPs that users can check ? |
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| riel_ | jneves: various lists, see http://spews.org/ http://spamhaus.org/ and http://www.bitch-list.net/ |
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| riel_ | ok, this was the lecture |
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| riel_ | if you have any questions, feel free to ask them |
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| jmgv | clap clap clap clap |
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| jmgv | clap clap clap clap |
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| fernand0 | plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas |
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| jose_n | plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas |
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| c58|slk | nice :) |
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| irbis | clapclapclapclapclap |
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| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| fernand0 | plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas |
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| dani | plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas |
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| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| irbis | clapclapclapclapclap |
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| irbis | clapclapclapclapclap |
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| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| fernand0 | plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas |
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| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| tiri | :? |
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| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| irbis | clapclapclapclapclap |
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| pdp | clapalapalap |
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| > clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
| ShawnWerk | :) |
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| netman | clap clap clap clap clap clap |
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| Paranguti | yeah, clap * 400 |
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| Arador | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
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| Arador | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
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| Arador | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
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| c58|slk | stop spam! |
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| c58|slk | :P |
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| netman | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clpa |
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| garoeda | clap clap clap clap |
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| erikm | klap klap klap klap |
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| pdp | hihi |
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| jmgv | very interesting indeep... cool... from now i will start to probe all of this |
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| ismak | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
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| tiri | eing? |
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| ismak | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
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| Salva | clap == plas in english |
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| GheBioN | plas clap plas clap yiji yah yeh |
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| Juggler | riel: thanks for a nice talk. :) |
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| ShawnWerk | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
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| ShawnWerk | clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
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| chbm | pipe down :) |
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| fernand0 | so |
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| fernand0 | questions ? |
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| tiri | plas plas plas plas |
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| jose_n | so riel, i encourage you to have a look at the various bits of spam related research i have been doing for a while (about 8 mos). i have most of what i have done (with little writeup so far) on my website |
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| pdp | BTW, what to do about e-mail harvesters ? |
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| jose_n | http://monkey.org/~jose/ |
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| riel_ | I hope everybody has heard at least one new thing about spam they didn't know yet |
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| riel_ | jose_n: I'll look at the URL, thanks! |
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| > [18:44] <c58|slk> riel_ for president! |
| skuld | riel_: surprised me how few the actual spammers were |
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| jose_n | the gist of it is that so much spam comes from unique addresses, with unique paths, and unique sources using those signatures to filter is difficult |
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| snide | riel: do u have some kind of a bibliography ? ;-) |
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| jose_n | too many t okeep track of. |
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| skuld | are, even |
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| jose_n | i'm all about content filtering: ifile, bogofilter, ifile, or SA. |
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| > [18:44] <c58|slk> riel_ for president! |
| erikm | pdp: most email harvesters have an interesting USERAGENT header, so you can use apache's mod_redir to redirect them to an "interesting" page |
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| riel_ | skuld: there are a LOT of spammers, but only a few are smart enough to send out hundreds of millions of messages each day |
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| jose_n | riel_++ |
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| iaiox | clap clap clap |
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| fernand0 | can an isp filter based on content ? |
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| Juggler | riel: do you by any chance know whether any discussion regarding extending/modifying the SMTP standard to make spamming more difficult has taken place? |
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| riel_ | Juggler: that also makes mailing lists harder |
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| iaiox | thanks for your talk |
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| jose_n | fernand0: si. using SA or some other content method s(ie bmf, ifile) you can do that. |
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| skuld | riel_: so those 150 you mentioned, they constitute 90% ? |
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| snide | Juggler: yup.. i can remember of a thread in /. |
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| jose_n | its best to tag it spam for people to allow them to filter. |
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| Juggler | riel: indeed, but whitelisting the mailing lists you subscribe to should be feasable. |
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| Ston_ | perl -e 'print "CLAP "x100' |
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| jose_n | bmf/ifile is the basis of the filtering in OS/X Mail.app |
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| Juggler | snide: a thread on /. isn't the same thing as Eric Allman and a bunch of other gurus sitting down an ddoing something :) |
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| Arador | Terra in spain have a 906 number phone for "technical" questions. That means you pay them calling at that number, Now i understand why debian.org doesn't allow me to subscribe to any mailing list :( |
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| tcr | riel_: how do spammers find open relays and those proxies out? |
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| skuld | tcr: thats a highly dubious question |
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| jose_n | tcr: they are constantly scanning ... :) (or paying others to scan) |
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| Kwuck | Arador terra has a web service for spam related problems |
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| snide | Juggler: hey... a thread on /. has the good will to exist at least ;-) |
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| Juggler | snide: true :) |
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| skuld | tcr: this was a very anti-spam biased discussion, not "how to make money with a computer" :) |
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| Juggler | tcr: portscanning, basically they use the same tools as hackers. |
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| riel_ | tcr: scanning and exchanging addresses with each other |
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| Juggler | there are lists of open proxies out there |
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| riel_ | skuld: http://spamhaus.org/ has more statistics |
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| Juggler | which are used both by spammers and "normal people" who for some reason want to avoid connecting in the standard way. |
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| snide | Juggler: someone on /. came up with a cryptographic payment per email for SMTP sending |
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| Juggler | e.g. people concerned about privacy. |
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| Arador | Kwuck: they don't told me that when i asked them why i couldn't send/receive mails from debian.org, the give me a nice 906 number |
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| jose_n | tcr: look in securityfocus' archives for the formmail scans and exploits ... constant background. |
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| Jaime | hola |
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| Jaime | alguna cubanita en la habana? |
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| Juggler | snide: that hashcash thing I mentioned is one form of crypto-based payment |
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| erikm | riel_: do you think secure SMTP (with SSL certs, etc) would solve the spam problem? |
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| Kwuck | Arador: http://www.telefonicaonline.com/nemesys/ :) |
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| riel_ | erikm: not really |
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| erikm | riel_: explain |
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| riel_ | erikm: email is useful because we can send mail to everybody |
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| snide | Juggler: sorry, i didn't follow the entire talk.. [ i was at work, and was something working ;-) ] |
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| riel_ | and email is useful because we can send large amounts of mail (eg. linux-kernel mailing list) |
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| Juggler | erikm: that doesn't change the cost equation, it just makes configuring a mail server harder and centralizes things, opening up the possiblity for a e-mail verisign problem. |
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| riel_ | it is just the combination of BULK + unsollicited that gives problems |
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| tcr | skuld: heh, i just asked because if even list are available, why does nobody take the initiative to close them? ;) |
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| riel_ | tcr: many administrators don't know |
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| riel_ | or they just don't care |
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| riel_ | I know a business that had an open relay open for about a year |
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| tcr | same problem like isp here |
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| riel_ | they didn't act on any complaints |
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| Arador | Kwuck: my problem is, how riel said, that some people doesn't accept mail from terra, i think |
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| skuld | half of korea has open wingate proxies, for some reason |
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| riel_ | they didn't do anything |
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| riel_ | ... until they got listed in the RSS and ORBS and they could no longer send email ;) |
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| snide | when is the next talk ? |
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| riel_ | then they panicked and contacted my boss, and I fixed their server |
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| riel_ | skuld: korea has http proxies |
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| riel_ | snide: very soon, let me look |
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| erikm | snide: http://umeet.uninet.edu/umeet2002/english/prog.eng.html |
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| erikm | snide: in 80 minutes or so |
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| pisanlov | riel_: is there any kind of 'pinishment' that can be used against some irresponsable companyes like WinGate? |
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| funkyshit | hi |
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| botijo | hey, funkyshit |
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| fernand0 | next talk in two hours twenty minutes |
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| snide | erikm: too lazy to launch mozzilla ;-p |
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| riel_ | http://umeet.uninet.edu/umeet2002/english/prog.eng.html |
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| tcr | riel_: btw. how do the administrators of such blocking list decide if an adress _is_ spam or not. Imagine what will happen if someone makes an *@surriel* entry in one of those lists ;) |
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| riel_ | snide: next talk is in 20 minutes it seems |
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| riel_ | or in 1 hour and 20 minutes |
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| fernand0 | no |
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| riel_ | let me look |
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| fernand0 | next talk in two hours twenty minutes |
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| fernand0 | this page is not working well |
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| fernand0 | we'll fix it woon |
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| jneves | riel: 1h 20 |
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| fernand0 | next talk is in two hours twenty |
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| riel_ | fernand0: you know for sure, can you update the topic for the next talk ? ;) |
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| BorZung | fernand0 at 01:00 is a talk? |
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| dmr_work | riel_: what's the next topic about? |
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| fernand0 | hehe |
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| riel_ | pisanlov: the manufacturers of these proxies sometimes get listed in spam block lists, too |
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| snide | fernand0, riel_: thx... *rushing home to catch the next talk* |
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| riel_ | pisanlov: but only if they refuse to fix their software |
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| snide | cu later |
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| fernand0 | well |
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| riel_ | pisanlov: for example, the guy who makes the analogX proxy REFUSES to secure his software by default |
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| skuld | it got bumped back one hour? |
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| jacobo | nice lecture |
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| riel_ | pisanlov: while wingate is now secure by default |
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| jacobo | I've read it quite attentively ;) |
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| Juggler | bye, thanks for the lecture! :-) And Riel, since you're here: thanks for your work on Linux. We appreciate it! |
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| riel_ | Juggler: thanks for being at the lecture |
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| orc_orc | nicely stated, Rik; your usual fine work -- you must have napped over the week-end |
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| riel_ | it wouldn't have been as much fun if I was alone |
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| Juggler | hehe. :) |
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| Ocell | bye, and thank's!!! |
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| riel_ | Ocell: no bye yet ... |
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| riel_ | Ocell: there is another lecture today ;) |
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| Ocell | ok... |
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| fernand0 | thank you to rik van riel and to you all for comming. The conversation can continue here if you want |
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| jacobo | fernand0: bye, guru, I'm going home :) |
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| dmr_work | Could someone tell me what the next lecture is about? |
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| fernand0 | jacobo thanks for your wonderful translation |
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| malglam | dmr_work: about mono |
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| sarnold | dmr_work: "Mono Hispano" .. I think about ximian's mono (C#) deal |
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| c58|slk | thank you riel and all :P now can u all configure my linux box :P |
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| riel_ | thanks orc_orc ;) |
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| riel_ | c58|slk: you should talk to acme about consultancy rates ;) |
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| fernand0 | see you later |
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| dmr_work | sarnold: thanks. |
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| c58|slk | riel: I got some tacos :) |
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| sarnold | vixard, d'oh, you missed riel's presentation :) |
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| vixard | sorry |
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| riel_ | vixard: don't worry, you can read the log later on |
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| vixard | i had to play with our system adm |
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| vixard | who´s gonna publish all logs? |
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| irc | i Think i managed to log it. :) reason i came to this channel. then the wife says.. "lets go shopping... NOW" |
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| > thanks riel... I hope this lecture will have a good widespream and I will send to mi ISP (terra.es), and I h |
| sarnold | riel_: i hope you (or someone else) logged it all, i showed up too late to get #gq or #redes .. #linux I got through lastlog though. :) |
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| riel_ | Dr_WIllis: uninet also puts logs on the website later on |
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| Dr_WIllis | how do ya check the logs in irssi. lets see |
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| riel_ | sarnold: hehe |
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| > the logs are well, and will be published as soon as possible |
| vixard | i bet my head (oh my) riel´s presentation was as good or better than usual :) |
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| sarnold | vixard: you'd be right :) it was good :) |
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| riel_ | MJesus: cool, wonderful |
|---|
| * vixard remembers.... |
| sarnold | vixard: following riel is a tough act :) |
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| riel_ | MJesus: the umeet organisation always does good work on that |
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| garoeda | riel_: are there sessions planned for kernel newbies or lectures that are aimed to beginners? |
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| jacobo | MJesus: fine, I want a copy of my fine translation work online ASAP ;-) |
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| vixard | woa, mono hispano |
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| vixard | there it is |
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| sarnold | jacobo: that was nice, you were fast :) |
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| riel_ | garoeda: UMEET has all kinds of lectures |
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| vixard | i hope all my question can be answered |
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| > riel, including you! |
| riel_ | garoeda: http://umeet.uninet.edu/umeet2002/english/prog.eng.html |
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| toti | riel what's the real shit you're talking about |
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| jacobo | sarnold: practice makes the... the... whatever :) |
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| riel_ | toti: I'll take part in the kernel round table |
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| riel_ | toti: but this was my lecture |
|---|
| riel_ | toti: there are some other nice kernel hackers talking about the kernel already |
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| tcr | jacobo: usus optimus magister (est) |
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| toti | But I can't understand what is the matter of your conv. |
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| c58|slk | riel_ whats your favorite distro of linux |
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| riel_ | toti: look at the program, Chris Wright, Greg Kroah-Hartman, William Irwin, Alan Cox, Seth Arnold, David Santo Orcero ... |
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| garoeda | riel_: thnx, i'll try to attend as much as possible |
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| riel_ | c58|slk: Conectiva ... but I'm biased ;) |
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| vixard | wich are the translation channels? |
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| c58|slk | #redes |
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| c58|slk | for spanish |
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| jacobo | vixard: #redes for Spanish |
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| vixard | thanks |
|---|
| c58|slk | nice translation jacobo |
|---|
| > very very nice ! |
| jacobo | what's the Keiretsu lecture about? |
|---|
| sarnold | jacobo: dan kaminsky used to work for cisco's PSIRT team; he wrote a mess of interesting network tools |
|---|
| OwL | quien habla español |
|---|
| > owl en #redes por favor |
| OwL | do you speak spanish |
|---|
| OwL | plase????? |
|---|
| > better english here |
| sarnold | jacobo: they seemed to be a sort that is far and away new and different from nmap/tcpdump that we're all used to :) |
|---|
| * riel_ goes away from the keyboard for a bit |
| riel_ | I have typed enough now |
|---|
| c58|slk | hehe |
|---|
| c58|slk | peace |
|---|
| Ocell | yo hablo español!!! |
|---|
| c58|slk | is Conectiva easy install and stuff? |
|---|
| sarnold | c58|slk: that is what i've heard |
|---|
| jacobo | ok, if I arrive on time tonight, I'll look at it :) |
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| jacobo | bye |
|---|
| jacobo | :) |
|---|
| > riel one question ... |
| c58|slk | is it in portuguese? |
|---|
| > I'm very impressive about.... your finger ! |
| sarnold | c58|slk: i think they have several languages, one of which is portugues |
|---|
| elQuillao | Ocell, entra a #redes para que leas en españoñ |
|---|
| elQuillao | perdon, español |
|---|
| > how are you capable to write in this forr (so fast and so correctly ) |
| > forr /forrm |
| > forr /form |
| jc | what mj ?? |
|---|
| sarnold | MJesus: riel has a dvorak keyboard layout :) |
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| tiri | sarnold: sure? |
|---|
| Ocell | el Quillao, gracias!!! |
|---|
| sarnold | tiri: yes |
|---|
| tiri | O_o |
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| jacobo | which brings endless amusement to people who borrow his laptop :) |
|---|
| > jc the riel talk about 2 hours... " in direct " |
| elQuillao | MJesus, en cuanto tiempo comienza la charla de Mono Hispano¡ |
|---|
| elQuillao | ? |
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| jacobo | live |
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