| Hirogen2 | riel_: In fact, we should be given a law "spam is only legal if explicity subscribed to" |
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| riel_ | Hirogen2: I'll get there ;) |
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| Hirogen2 | so the best method is not to reply at all so he thinks it's a dead adress |
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| Hirogen2 | =) |
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| angelLuis | traductor de la universidad de oviedo: http://tradu.scig.uniovi.es/texto.html |
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| Juggler | has this actually been verified? the confirming bit? |
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| seletz | i dont like the idea to rely on laws. |
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| Juggler | I wonder if there are any references. The potential is real, but I'm curios if there are any documented cases of this happening. |
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| jmgv | and if we try to unsubscribe... they mark my email adreess like a valid address because they know there is somebody behind it |
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| Hirogen2 | seletz: 'cause it's too hard to trace they just drop the idea, because it would cost too much to prosecute spammers. |
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| angelLuis | universidad de oviedo traductions: http://tradu.scig.uniovi.es/texto.html |
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| Hirogen2 | "User Subscribe Page" |
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| seletz | lol |
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| Juggler | could be a typo. :) hehe |
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| damokles | (or are to lazy to start a web browser :) |
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| Hirogen2 | a typo is to 99% just one mistaken char, not two. A typo is a wrong char but not a missed char. |
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| Hirogen2 | riel_: it's even worse. most pages just give you a field and submit and that's all... |
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| damokles | a lot of people forget changing html tiltes |
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| Juggler | depends on if it's a typo due to mistyping or due to language difficulties. But I agree that's probably an abusive page. :) |
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| Hirogen2 | no "unsubscrib" filename no "unsubscrib" page title, no "un" at all in there |
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| c58|slk | I get 300 daily spam mails :( |
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| Hirogen2 | well if it's an IP rather than a good DNS name, you can treat it spam. |
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| Hirogen2 | the HTTP address though. |
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| seletz | so lets block all of them? |
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| Hirogen2 | riel_: see the "header" of the mail... and as you may figure out.. dynamic hosts (and thus a mail-worm... but spam stays spa) |
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| snide | aren't there some software that fakes an "undelivrable" mail in order to make them think it's a closed address ? [ i don't know if they really care though ] |
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| dmr_work | isn't this list the same as an RBL list? (such as is provided by spamassassin or razor) |
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| c58|slk | the problem es that most mails can be send by your same e-mail adress also |
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| c58|slk | :( |
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| angelLuis | El Proyecto Spamhaus |
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| ifvoid | dmr_work: RBL's contain ip's afaik |
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| Hirogen2 | snide: would be nice if sendmail/procmail interacts with any mail program (kmail,pine) to ask what to do. |
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| Hirogen2 | another nice action against is, just _SUB_scribe 100000 invalid email adresses to the "unsubscribe" pages. |
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| seletz | who pays them? Is there a list of payers, too? |
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| snide | Hirogen2: even.. just like the MUA isn't the last step, and behave like a MTA [ like in "bouncing" the mail ] |
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| Hirogen2 | I read the article about Alan Rilskey and it sounded not that cheap... (they made a sub-ISP) |
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| Hirogen2 | article from ROKSO |
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| Hirogen2 | riel_: via viruses. |
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| riel_ | Hirogen2: not really |
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| seletz | That should be a crime, should'nt it? |
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| Hirogen2 | worms then. |
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| snide | riel_: u cannot defeat dumbness and ignorance ;-p |
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| Juggler | actually, sending spam is relatively cheap, which is exactly the problem. :) Using someone else's computer makes it even cheaper but solving that problem isn't going to eradicate spam. |
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| Hirogen2 | seletz: A Star Trek Ferengi Rule of Acquisition says 'A warranty is only valid if they can find you'... as is with our spam. |
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| dmr_work | riel_: alot of ISPs are cracking down on open relays. local ISPs here in Pittsburgh actually check for open relays. ChoiceOne, and Stargate to name a couple |
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| Hirogen2 | Juggler: yet I am not even able to trace the mail to the used pc |
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| erikm | riel_: note that open relays were considered good practice in the early days of the internet (say, till 1993 or so) |
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| dmr_work | FYI |
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| seletz | lol, yeah. But one has a list of spammers, and ... ok, nevermind. |
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| Hirogen2 | even IRC servers look for open proxies nowadays |
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| ifvoid | erikm: why? |
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| Hirogen2 | they should lock their SOCKS proxy, only to use for intranet |
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| chbm | ifvoid: cause the unwashed masses hadn't hit the internet by then |
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| erikm | ifvoid: cause you couldn't reach every host at that point. just putting it on a server somewhere in between solved that problem |
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| chbm | ifvoid: it was like a very big bbs :) |
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| snide | riel_: there is only one thing that is unlimited in this world : dumbness ;-p [ that's why email-viruses spreaded so fast ] |
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| erikm | chbm: yup :) |
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| Juggler | this is one of the problems with spam - it's destroying the open, cooperative spirit of the 'net. :-/ |
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| Hirogen2 | snide: and micro$oft makes it worse with their "open" software, to speak of outlook |
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| Juggler | what little is left of it anyway. |
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| chbm | riel: odly spaming in a crime in US too but they didn't get them for that ;) |
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| erikm | Juggler: well, nowadays you can still do it, with a proper DNS setup with and backup MX servers. usually too hard for the average windows admin |
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| Hirogen2 | riel_: lol... now find a nice way to back-spam |
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| pdp | especially when they get spammed themselves... |
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| snide | Hirogen2: no really. M$ makes nice softs ;p They just tell everyone that they don't need to "learn" the good usage. i think THAT's the prob... |
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| erikm | Hirogen2: already done. read /. from last friday |
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| erikm | Hirogen2: riel mentions it right now |
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| Hirogen2 | erikm: URL? |
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| erikm | Hirogen2: riel even gave the URL :) |
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| pdp | http://www.freep.com/money/tech/mwend6_20021206.htm |
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| Hirogen2 | ah ok |
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| Hirogen2 | Now ask Alan's neighbors to dump their [biological] waste in front of Alan's house, as a symbol of spam. |
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| snide | riel_: hey... he has a fat internet pipe, but just a little snailmail-box ;-) |
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| Hirogen2 | but they'd better STFU when they talking spam/shit. |
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| pdp | getting rid of junkmail also costs the receiver money |
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| Hirogen2 | each day i check my emails, I just delete emails by looking at the sender's name. If I donot know it, it's trash. |
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| snide | Hirogen2: welcome to the new world of "whitelisting" ;-) |
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| Juggler | a better analogy is "free speech using YOUR fax machine"... a form of abuse which IS illegal in many contries. |
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| Hirogen2 | riel_: A quote from a german book about America "This is my house and in my house i'm gonna kill ya" |
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| Hirogen2 | oh yeah faxing is also bad. |
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| dmr_work | snide: and autowhitelisting |
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| Hirogen2 | here in germany we receive about 2 spam faxes each night. since then we removed the fax from our telephone line at all. |
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| snide | dmr_work: u also followed the thread on /. ? ;-p |
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| Juggler | Hirogen: eww! |
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| damokles | riel: so you don't want any public space on the internet, as private property is able to prevent spam? |
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| dmr_work | snide: haven't read it yet. |
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| jmgv | but... is not the samething when somebody put some advertisement paper at your traditional mailbox? |
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| jmgv | they use your mailbox, without permision |
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| ArielIL | it's the same thing, and it's called junk mail |
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| snide | dmr_work: pretty instructive... [ i mean as much as a ./ thread can be ... ] |
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| Hirogen2 | 'If the messenger comes to tell you what taxes you have to pay, kill the messenger.' |
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| ArielIL | and there is a law for that too |
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| pdp | but the senders pay for it |
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| Hirogen2 | 'No advertisements' printed on the snailmax box |
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| Hirogen2 | 'No advertisements' printed on the snailmail box |
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| ShawnWerk | jmgv: bulk paper mail doesn't cost me anything |
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| Juggler | actually, since getting rid of waste paper is a big hassle costing both time and money, the difference isn't as big as many people make it out to be. :) we're just used to paper spam. |
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| chbm | jmgv: you can price bandwith and disk space. and that *really* costs mony |
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| snide | dmr_work: u just have to filter the comments for cleaning the signal/noise ratio ;-) |
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| ShawnWerk | but bandwidth costs money to send/receive spam. |
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| dmr_work | :-) |
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| seletz | riel_: but you pay the cost for sisposing unwanted paper, too. |
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| ShawnWerk | right, just what riel said |
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| ShawnWerk | hehe |
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| pdp | well, it will cost if your trash-bill comes by the weight of your trash |
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| jmgv | i agree, thank you! |
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| Hirogen2 | ShawnWerk: bandwidth is a luxury |
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| ShawnWerk | Hirogen2: yes |
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| seletz | disposing :) |
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| erikm | seletz: no, I even get money for disposed paper :) |
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| Hirogen2 | nearly free, luxury. |
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| c58|slk | I hate waiting 10 min to download 30 min :) |
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| c58|slk | dunno about you |
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| chbm | jmgv: it's actually more expensive for you than for them |
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| Hirogen2 | c58|slk: using FilePlanet? |
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| seletz | not in germany AFAIK |
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| Hirogen2 | seletz: ? |
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| c58|slk | Using my own webmail server :( |
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| c58|slk | gamerslatino.com |
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| Hirogen2 | we have a 'Keine Werbung' (no ads) for our snailmail boxes |
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| ProGuy | Hmm, There are ways around the "no junk mail" sticker, they just address them to you -- exactly like is being done with Spam (if you own a domain you will get alot of spam directed to you with name and all) |
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| seletz | Hirogen2: yes, but we dont get money for disposed paper |
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| seletz | Hirogen2: do we? |
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| Hirogen2 | i don't even get money for disposed email |
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| erikm | seletz: I know. germany used to dump paper on the dutch market. bastards, that cost me money |
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| Juggler | the main difference is because paper spam is expensive to send, advertisers tend to target their ads better. Alot of the paper spam I get is stuff I'm interested in - I've never received e-mail spam I liked. |
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| pdp | in NL also, with an distinction of yes/no "free newspapers (advertorials etc) |
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| angelLuis | jacobo: felicidades por tu traducción, está siendo "coj...da"! |
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| angelLuis | jacobo: congratulations about your traducction! it's very good! |
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| ChanGux | riel_ : what do you think about services as ordb.org? |
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| gwm | I usually call any spammer that sends me a phone number. Collect. |
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| netman | me too, Jacobo |
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| Hirogen2 | riel_: then block hotmail aol and yahoo |
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| seletz | (1) should be quite hard |
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| riel_ | ChanGux: moment ... |
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| Hirogen2 | seletz: no... |
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| ChanGux | ok |
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| Hirogen2 | seletz: the mplayer mailing list has a very good filter... |
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| snide | Juggler: pb is that mostly "interesting" spam per email doesn't exist. It is too expensive to collect selective email adresses than to mass-send it. |
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| dmr_work | ChanGux: haha, do they actually accept the call? |
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| * MiTo is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On] |
| Hirogen2 | seletz: it checks for YELLED WORDS, html bold/italic/underlined and offense words |
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| ifvoid | riel_: spamassassin also uses 3) and 4) |
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| erikm | seletz: (1) is easy. see spamfilter and spamassasin |
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| seletz | Hirogen2: ok |
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| dmr_work | and razor |
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| ChanGux | jeje dmr_work |
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| Juggler | snide: exactly. the problem has to do with money. sending e-mail is too cheap, people abuse it. |
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| dmr_work | i use spamassassin and razor together on my qmail setup |
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| Hirogen2 | i should just grep any mail for the word 'fuck' 'penis' or 'sex' and if it is found, it's trash. |
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| Hirogen2 | no normal (wo)man would tell me she'd f*ck with ... at ... , not over email, not over unsecure internet :-) |
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| seletz | Hirogen2: lol, you're right :) |
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| skuld | there is a difference between sexes in this matter. |
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| pdp | that depend on your perception of "normal" |
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| Hirogen2 | actually, you never talk about love with someone over textual applications (fax,email,icq...) |
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| Hirogen2 | (but snailmail but that's something acceptable) |
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| erikm | pdp: lol, you're talking about buuv ? ;) |
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| jmgv | like terra!? |
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| * erikm hides for pdp |
| pdp | that not called "normal" yhat's called discretion ...;-))) |
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| Hirogen2 | pdp: yeah! |
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| pdp | hi erik ;-) |
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| Juggler | blacklists such as the RBL/SBL have a way too high false-positive rate to be usable in a production environment... |
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| Hirogen2 | pdp: Spam tells me that someone wants to meet me... |
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| dmr_work | Hirogen2: but then you'd miss your chance to order a Russian Mail-Order Bride. |
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| Hirogen2 | lol |
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| ifvoid | Juggler: they are very usable in a scoring system like SA |
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| pdp | but but but, they tell all the time i am to small and have no stamina ...;-) |
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| Hirogen2 | pdp: no time for ya |
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| snide | riel_: but does spamming really work in the long term ? |
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| Hirogen2 | riel_: another (6)'th method of blocking spam would be checking the email adress. Not very accurate but most hotmail adresses have numbers intermixed with chars a normal human would never choose. |
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| Juggler | ifvoid: that still raises the false-positive rate, although by a lower factor than the most common use. :) |
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| Hirogen2 | like et79z34657. not me. |
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| Ikarus | Hirogen2: many ISP's use randomly generated e-mail addies now |
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| Juggler | false positives are the real problem when blocking spam... one blocked legit message is worse than 1000 received spams. |
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| riel_ | Hirogen2: indeed |
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| Ikarus | Hirogen2: and just tell their customers to ger a redirect |
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| ifvoid | Juggler: sure |
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| Hirogen2 | normal users do not have more than 3 numbers in it. <-- I Guess. |
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| sarnold | .. with the unfortunate side-effect that @amazon.com is in the autowhitelist of spamassassin by default :( |
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| ifvoid | Juggler: I don't discard the messaged that are marked as spam directly; those are reviewed about one a day or so |
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| erikm | sarnold: that's where multiple spamfilters help |
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| Ikarus | Hirogen2: not true, but as a test combined with several others and a scoring system it would be usable |
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| jose_n | riel: how well are "spam voting" solutions, like "spamnet" (http://www.cloudmark.com/) |
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| Hirogen2 | riel_: The least seen thing is the "X-Warning"(?) header, which comes up to mind if you provide a wrong FROM header in SMTP connections. |
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| snide | Hirogen2: and staticially analysing the "content" of the email ? [ wow.. are there some maths gurus here ? ;-) ] |
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| Ikarus | snide: that is being done |
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| Hirogen2 | snide: if I would check the content for 'sex' I am sure I would get rid of 50% of the daily spam |
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| Hirogen2 | see above. |
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| snide | Hirogen2: i know what u said ;-) |
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| Hirogen2 | g |
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| Juggler | hmm, riel didn't mention 7) counting how often a message has been seen and flagging it as bulk if it isn't already whitelisted. :) the DCC approach. |
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| erikm | riel_: depends on the ISP. my record in .nl is five minutes (with cistron.nl) |
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| ifvoid | snide: you need a large amount of spam and non-spam mail to feed such statistical filters |
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| Hirogen2 | Ther was once a really nice solution, a recycler (german but doesnot matter)... |
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| ifvoid | snide: >1000 or so |
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| Hirogen2 | you bonuced your mail to the recycler and it sent it recycled back :P (mail contained 234 a's, 23 b's...) |
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| snide | Hirogen2 ifvoid: just open a domain, and wait ;-p |
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| pdp | you could get radical, and weed out everything with an non-ascii content-header |
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| Hirogen2 | pdp: and discard anything without ISO-8859-1 or -15 header. |
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| Ikarus | pdp: weeding out HTML is more useful |
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| pdp | for instance , and block anything html multipart etc |
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| ifvoid | blocking all non-western charsets helps a lot, too |
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| erikm | riel_: blocklists need people with clue about spam. at the university I used to work, they didn't have clue and happily blocked *.br, redhat.com, gnu.org and kernel.org |
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| Ikarus | pdp: as there are alot of valid attachment (vcards, pgp sigs and such) |
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| ifvoid | unless your're from Asia, I guess |
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| snide | Ikarus: wow.. there are many HTML-freak MUA in the wildness ;-) |
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| Ikarus | snide: if people include a text version with their mail it gets through, if they don't or it is more then 50%shorter then the HTML it goes into /dev/null |
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| snide | Ikarus: u don't know the nice MUA that some *big* companies makes ;-) |
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| Hirogen2 | but it's ok to block *.pk |
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| pdp | One should choose for an staggered approache: block known spam-ip, then weed out on the obvous, and than fine-tune your filters |
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| Ikarus | snide: which is why that methode is only used on one of my spam tests |
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| jnebrera | hi rick |
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| jnebrera | in Spain such a law has just neen apporved |
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| Ikarus | snide: normally I only do spam filtering based on two addy's that end up in the same mailboxes by a destruction of all mails more then 95% equal |
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| jnebrera | but most spammers just come from the USA |
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| Ikarus | which get about 90% of spam |
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| jnebrera | ISNT THIS A SUPRANATIONAL PROBLEM? |
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| pdp | it is |
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| Juggler | Hmm... Riel: you totally left out DCC-like techniques (distributed networks exchanging checksums and counters of seen mail) from "ways to detect, block and filter". :-) Tsk tsk! |
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| Juggler | hehe |
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| riel_ | Juggler: no time, can't cover everything |
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| ShawnWerk | hahaha |
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| Juggler | darn, that's my favorite method ;) |
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| Ikarus | Juggler: well, it is similair to what I do, just on a larger scale |
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| c58|slk | lol |
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| c58|slk | my penis has grow 10 inches! |
|---|
| ifvoid | c58|slk: only 10? ;) |
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| erikm | riel_: well, depends. state of washington has anti-spam laws which can sue any spammer from any other US state |
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| ifvoid | c58|slk: you should get a refund |
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| c58|slk | ifvoid: the sugar aint working that good |
|---|
| pdp | only it has the most politicials in state ;-) |
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| riel_ | erikm: one moment ;) |
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| pdp | they only act when it hurts _them_ |
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| c58|slk | this is it |
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| c58|slk | riel_ for president! |
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| skuld | Brazil or Netherlands? |
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| pdp | boyh could use a nice guy... |
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| erikm | skuld: netherlands has a queen, so he could only become prime minister |
|---|
| > yes, where could we to put the signature for this ? |
| erikm | skuld: who in effect has the same power as a president |
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| erikm | riel_: sorry :) |
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| riel_ | erikm: no problem |
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| c58|slk | Im moving to washington |
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| chbm | riel is too dorky to become president of anything |
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| * chbm hops away |
| c58|slk | Ill be rich with my 300 daily mails |
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| sarnold | c58|slk: washington isn't that great :) |
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| c58|slk | if I can get 500 bucks for each e-mail of spam |
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| pdp | c58|slk: you cant get in the G R Q busssiness in Wa...;-0 |
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| c58|slk | 500 x 300 = 150000 |
|---|
| c58|slk | so if thats true ill be rich :P |
|---|
| c58|slk | and thats per day :P |
|---|
| pdp | But what if they go to some off-shore spam-haven ? |
|---|
| erikm | riel_: interesting sidenote about washington is that the spam cases come in the "small claims court", which means spammers can't be represented by attorneys but have to defend themselves, which they usually can't |
|---|
| dmr_work | riel_: so the point of that is to make a spam law just like a common traffic law? If you speed and get caught, you pay a ticket. I think everyone speeds, no? |
|---|
| Juggler | Making laws won't solve the problem entirely, since you'll never get everyone to agree on the proper set of laws, globally speaking. |
|---|
| sarnold | oh? I'm now getting italian spam.... :) heh heh |
|---|
| dmr_work | Juggler: and there will always be a loop-hole. |
|---|
| c58|slk | but how can you track the spammer |
|---|
| jnebrera | hi rick |
|---|
| c58|slk | to sue the bitch and get my 500 bucks |
|---|
| jnebrera | yes, but this law only applies to |
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| chbm | riel: not incorporated into coutry laws, and iirc doesn't say anything about punishment |
|---|
| jnebrera | spam comming from UE, not USA |
|---|
| jmgv | new law called LSSI even forbid send a email to ask you if you wanna to recive a email for a company |
|---|
| jmgv | or from somebody |
|---|
| Juggler | ... and at the rate spam is increasing, removing those 90% will only make a year or two of difference. :) |
|---|
| Ikarus | the problem is that such a law might become too wide for its own good |
|---|
| c58|slk | death pnealty for spammers |
|---|
| jneves | chbm: the e-commerce directive is opt-ou |
|---|
| jneves | chbm: the e-commerce directive is opt-out |
|---|
| Ikarus | I already got threatend when I send a mail to a e-mail addy I was not supposed to know about (mail-admin@) |
|---|
| jneves | not opt-in |
|---|
| Juggler | Riel: are you aware of whether the internet community has made any steps toward implementing a technical solution, such as HashCash? see: http://www.cypherspace.org/~adam/hashcash/ |
|---|
| sarnold | Juggler: hashcash and the like are patented, at least in the united states. :-/ |
|---|
| chbm | jneves: i recall something about opt-in being voted .. |
|---|
| Juggler | darn. I didn't know that :( |
|---|
| jneves | chbm: what seams to work in europe - at least in Portugal - is data privacy legislation - at least I got away with those |
|---|
| sarnold | Juggler: quite the kick in the pants, no? :( |
|---|
| Juggler | sarnold: yup. that explains why nothing has happened with those ideas though... |
|---|
| Juggler | sarnold: which is something I just couldn't understand :) |
|---|
| chbm | jneves: until (c) over dbs comes to life! |
|---|
| jneves | chbm: opt-out is what you find in the directive - even if we (in Portugal) are late in implementing it |
|---|
| sarnold | Juggler: history has its hand in the matter, of course :) introducing an incompatible mail standard probably isn't going to go anywhere... |
|---|
| jneves | chbm: that shouldn't affect privacy laws - and copyright over dbs exists today |
|---|
| Juggler | I've seen hashcash proposals which were backwards compatible :) |
|---|
| chbm | jneves: i read something about (c) over DBs, even if the data isn't yours |
|---|
| Juggler | you simply make the mail server operate very poorly if it doesn't get payed by hashcash or some other form of ecash. |
|---|
| jneves | chbm: law 122/2000, July 4 in Portugal |
|---|
| chbm | jneves: obvious collision with current data privacy |
|---|
| Pummel | riel_: dou you think url's like this: (http://usenet-addresses.mit.edu/) should be legal in the next future? |
|---|
| jneves | chbm: but privacy laws have more importance (it's said on the law text) |
|---|
| chbm | ah |
|---|
| jneves | riel_: is there a list of problematic ISPs that users can check ? |
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| jmgv | terra is going to get closed in few! at least that is what economy expert think about it |
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| skuld | good job, riel :) |
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| fernand0 | plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas plas |
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| riel_ | skuld: thanks |
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| loki | muy buena conferecias |
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| ShawnWerk | yes :-) |
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