CSMan	is that time ok?
@MJnos	buenos dias
Ratta	hi
@MJnos	hi ratta
ebarbeito	buenas tardes
EMPEROR	hi to all
EMPEROR	buenas a todos
Ratta	hi
james	nas
MJesus	hi
james	what is a handheld?
@sarnold	james: a computing device that fits in one's hand
james	okis, a PDA
james	In Spain, is UTC+1?
@sarnold	i think so
@sarnold	Thu Dec 19 17:36:16 UTC 2002
@sarnold	check that with your own "date" output
james	jue dic 19 18:37:32 CET 2002
ebarbeito	jue dic 19 18:36:50 GMT 2002
ebarbeito	;)
james	UTC CAMOUFLAGE <---- someone who save it to me? XDXD
@sarnold	james http://umeet.uninet.edu/umeet2002/english/des.eng.html
james	like pirates, it is on-line before the original
@sarnold	really? hmm. :) The logs _will_ be there, shortly after the talk is done..
james	:( i was looking for it
EMPEROR	hi :)
Aule	enas
Arador	the conferency starts it seems
@Arador	We're going to start a tak of the moderator of the round table "linux in the public administration"
@Arador	he es Borja Marcos
@Arador	Borja is know in the specialized circles, specialy abut computer securit, freebsd and as critic specialized in computer science
@Arador	besides, is of the first of Uninet
@Arador	He has been 15 years trying and fighting with the computer bugs
@Arador	and specially he is a precursor of the free sowftware
@Arador	his lecture is called "free incompetency"
@Arador	Borja: Gracias :-)
@Arador	FREE INCOMPETENCE
@Arador	and please don't frighten, it'll be short  and it'll not harm ;)
@Arador	It's not new to the presents the following fact: the computer market is in hands of a monopoly
@Arador	However, this isn't a new thing, this has been from the start of the computer industry
@Arador	The market was dominated by IBM until Microsoft relieved him
@Arador	¿should we accpet the situation and leave it as it's?
@Arador	It's been always in this way, no?
@Arador	No. in the ages of the IBM reign, the copmuters were machines used by intereprises and research centers
@Arador	to "eat"? numbers and clasify databasese
@Arador	The public, in general, didn't have a relation with the computers, However, today the computer has become a communication instrument
@Arador	SO, that a communication instrument is conqueredm is preocupant
@Arador	A lot preocupant, in my opinion, was that the old monopoly  of IBM, that  the age of "electric brains" in the cinema
@Arador	I think that there's not a case were is more justified the intervetion of the autority than this, and however, surprisinly (or not) They're doing nothing
@Arador	It's relevant that the last balance of Microsoft presented to the SEC (american equivalent to the spanish CNMV ) is
@Arador	that Windows and Office are the 85% of the benefits about the manufacturation
@Arador	while the rest of the divisions (MSN, X-Box,, etc) are loosing a lot of money
@Arador	If this isn't a dumping using a monopoly, came god and see it!
@Arador	what's happenning at the same time? It's understandable that in the united states there isn't a lot of movement
@Arador	The big enterprises are big donants to the electoral campaigns, and it seems that nobody wants to put a big sancktion to one of the biggest enterprises of the country
@Arador	But what happen in europe? IN europe the situation is worse i think.
@Arador	i a sequence of letters that  i found the last year with the free "competence" departamente in the CE
@Arador	it was clear that they were investigating the inclusion of Microsoft Media Player in Windows and his influence in tjhe server market
@Arador	(anybody  that wants to server videos for windows clients has to buy a windows operative system) and that they hadn't RESOURCES FOR ANYTHING MORE
@Arador	THis is, in my opinion, in-pardonable
@Arador	while the European COmision loses time, the european alternatives (Opera, Linux) are damaged by the Microsoft practices and the monopoly
@Arador	But i'm not talking about strange HTML versions or archiv formats
@Arador	I'm talking about the barrier that has a potential user of free software, as freebsd or linux
@Arador	<sorry about the delay, i'll continue in a moment>
@Arador	the number of devices that doesn't hace driver are increasing, and this is due to that the fabricants hide the interfaz description, assuring that it's and industrial secret, what makes impossible (or difficults it) the drivers development
@Arador	what strange blak magic is behind this? A few years ago, the chips fabricants  given carachteristic books to any developer
@Arador	But in the actual situation, witha  monopoly in the operative system market, it seems that it's no needed nobody more to make the drivers once it's included in the windows cds....To a minority of users it "doesnt have value"
@Arador	This is the problem. This is only a supposition (in any case a acusation, i've no proofs)
@Arador	but it's a research line that the authority should floow
@Arador	:
@Arador	¿Wil be a dark hand that suggest at the manufacturer (= fabricante in previus paragraphs :-/) that it'd easier to include the driver in the cd's if the specifications are secret?
@Arador	I'd be surprised that this'd be in this way. You have nothing more to see the agreements clauses in the Windows OEM licenses, that forbid the compercializatrion of any other OS
@Arador	¿Why not give a round to the turkey and do that too? Nowadays, it's the worst problem that the free software faces
@Arador	This'd have easy solution: as i proposed to the CE: forbid the comercialization in the EU of devices that doesn't have reasonables conditions to the interfaz description
@Arador	It's a reasonable meaure, that doesn't face frontly to Microsoft (so i think that it's cost in the OMC wouldn't be too bug) but that it's a torpedo to their flotation line
@Arador	I'd like to see the authority reaction it a petroleum company would make cars with an special  nozzle
@Arador	in the deposit that only they could use in their pretol station
@Arador	I think that this campain in this sense must be considered by the free software community in Europe
MJesus	clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap
MJesus	clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap
MJesus	clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap
MJesus	clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap
MJesus	clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap
Polkan	clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap
@Arador	Borja: when i buy a device, i look befiore if it's supported for linux. Don't you believe that don't publishing that can go against and sell less for the free software users?
@Arador	if the number of users increases, yes. But the start barrier is bigger each time
@Arador	toomany: Borja: i'd say more, wouldn't be interesting seminaries facing the directives, to explain what're the open source licenses, and their advantages? Not to mention the patents
@Arador	an example: (I'll follow later with the toomany question)
@Arador	we've two "hot" technologies in communications
@Arador	1 - wide band? (adsl, cable modem , etc..)
@Arador	2 - wireless
@Arador	It's the same to access to these devies with windoes that for example with freebsd or linux?
@Arador	Ther're a lot of USB devices that're only supported in Windows. Not even in Mac
@Arador	Even strongly standarized devices as modems, now they aren't so standard
@Arador	I've 4 extern serial modems, and i save them as a treasure
@Arador	It's happening the same with printers
@Arador	But that isn't important so much for me. THe really important is that an user that wants wide band has to pay more because he needs a router
@Arador	Polkan: for example, olliveti announced that ANY of their new bubble printers would have linux drivers
@Arador	borja: and not only because it's a system limitation. Only because the manufacturer doesn't want!
@Arador	borja: polkan: godd to know, i'll kick a ollivetti  comercal if they try to sell me anything
@Arador	The thing is that it can happen the same with wireless devices
@Arador	well, someone will have in whose isps freebsd is the pefered system, and we don't want to hear about windows ;)
@Arador	with the wireless devices it happens  the same: the common chips are well supported, but there's new chips whose manufacturers will not release the specifications
@Arador	they're separating the windows users from the rest
@Arador	welll, we're going to create polemic ;)
@Arador	in the last Hispalinux congress, the freebsd group we started our intervention sayng that  there's a "tabu" topic
@Arador	licenses
@Arador	They could explain other things. For example, i work for an isp, and i have to power to decide what platforms we support
@Arador	s/support/use
@Arador	The platform i choose uses to be FreeBSD or Solaris
@Arador	Biut not because freebsd is "free". Te most of the people doesn't care about that
@Arador	i chosse it because:
@Arador	1 - It works really well
@Arador	2 - I wn't change the machine in a year
@Arador	3 - I can havwe a good control of the security. i *SEE* what the machine does
@raul	4 - It's very inprovable that someone call me at 3 of night saying that something isn't running, or be one month hitting my head because i don't know how to make a trivial thing.
@raul	Yes, the Windows user lost hours trying to do trivial things.
@raul	We will Contine after with the benefits for the comuninty, (that are, and it's incontestable), etc...
@raul	But we have to take in mind that we are against a marketing machinarie with a lot of facilities.
@raul	Well, Ernesto are going to continue now
@raul	But from linux's world have to change the actitude, i think that we have to change a litle the message.
@raul	the question isn't if linux is better or worse than ..
@raul	rather that the compect "windows vs other OSs" have to be overcome
@raul	we continue at #qc channel, for questions and answers
@Arador	<we'll try to start the translation soon>
@Arador	what im gonna do is to make a little tour about the successes in free soft in Peru
@Arador	PLUG (Peruvian Linux Users group) borns in 1997
@Arador	which primary goal is to spread? Linux use in Peru
@Arador	the main "weapon" of this org is a maillist which actually have about 1500 members
@Arador	in 1998 and 1999 seminars and "talks" about GNU/Linux begn
@Arador	in the 2000 year a initiative borns
@Arador	by the support of a congresist called Edgar Villanueva
@Arador	that it'd derivate in the famous Free Software Law
@Arador	for its realization, we count with direct support from FSF, Grulic & Via Libre (from Argentina
@Arador	the 14 december 2001, the law proyect 1609 is presented in the congress
@Arador	republic's congress
@Arador	in the earlis 2002 the PLUG, Gnu Peru and a good number of activist start activities supporting the law
@Arador	there were several seminaries and forums
@Arador	it went to the congress to decide and sustent the law's proyect in question
@Arador	how you could expect there was too many preassures by both sides
@Arador	the 25 march, the Peru' Microsoft General manager sends a letter to the Villanueva's congresists
@Arador	in it, he notes the Microsoft position weith the law
@Arador	this provoques to so famous reponse to that letter that appeared in verywhere
@Arador	all this info you'll find at
@Arador	http://pimientolinux.com/peru2ms/ (translated to several languages)
@Arador	the way to make the law isn't good-appealing
@Arador	actuallly, it's at the consumer's defense comision
@Arador	if it passes this instace , i'd have to pass to a comission to go to a votation at the conjgress
@Arador	actually the proyect is frozen by several burocratic motives
@Arador	and it's waited that for the firsts months of the next year we'll have a reply
@Arador	thanks to all this noise, a lot of entities of the Peruan state started to analize what the free software could offer them
@Arador	it've to be said that the peruan government is the bigger softrware pirate
@Arador	today we found that for money issues
@Arador	a lot of institutions are going to free software (basically linux)
@Arador	some examples are:
@Arador	the "defensorie " of the population
@Arador	national bibliotheque of peru
@Arador	Inictel (national institute of techniology and science)
@Arador	Imparte (sea's institute peruan)
@Arador	well, that's my introduction
@Arador	i'll commment some of the facts more important happened in my conuntry
@Arador	and some migration experiences
@Arador	thanks
@Arador	Polkan:
@Arador	now, Polkan Garcia has the voice
@Arador	from the "defensory of the population (colomby)
@Arador	good night/afternoon
@Arador	the inmintet arrival of the new technollotgies in our sociey in the lasts years has generated a new reality for the country
@Arador	It's evident that in these moments for the new generations using a computer is as easy as usng a phone or seeing the tv
@Arador	Hoowever, the knowledge about how the software's industry works by the end user is very few
@Arador	despite of  having in their hands the power of onfluence in the evolution of the tendences
@Arador	of the said industry
@Arador	INstead of that, the copmuter's users of Columbia renunce to that posibility in a passive actitude
@Arador	front the facts
@Arador	it borns a lot of questions
@Arador	¿how many time will we depend of the foreign offerts in software?
@Arador	In front of this facts, born a set of unrest inebitables: When we will be independent of the xtranger offers in software? when we start to generate us or demand in IT? why bill gates wasn't born in Colombia? Where are our computer genius? Why don't exit any national big company of softaware in our country?
@Arador	The posible answers to this questions generate a sad landscape (almost desertic)
@Arador	about our interest and ambitions in the investigation and development area of software at Colombia.
@Arador	<raul>  At Colombia linux enter like a boom
@Arador	dic 19 23:02:40 <raul>  starting at universities that are the only that had access to it and after starting to appearing the first linux groups
@Arador	<raul>  Like at Peru, it acknowledge to propose an alternative for use the free software at the state because a lot of entities at informal level are using it, government institutions and private organizations
@Arador	<raul>  To this inititative joing the congressistman called Gustabo Petro
@Arador	<raul>  for after of much work own a final document of the project, the lik to this project are in this url (spanish):
@Arador	<raul>   http://www.bachue.com/colibri/ley.html
@Arador	<raul>  This is from september of this year, today is started the confrontation against detractors of the same,
@Arador	<raul>  http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/opinion/colopi/02dediciembrede2002/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INTERIOR-216972.html
@Arador	<raul>  At where they say that this project are noxious and in detrimental
@Arador	<raul>  However, the comunity of free software users from Colombia (colibri) are strongly defending this project
@Arador	<raul>   http://www.bachue.com/colibri/guisan-reply.html
@Arador	<raul>  the meeting is open, we feeling that dificult days will come...
@Arador	<raul>  i think that for now is fine
@Arador	<raul>  thanks you, Polkan.
@Arador	<raul>  Now is turn for Jesus Rubio, from the Extremadure governement.
@Arador	<raul>  come on, Jesus.
@Arador	<raul>  ------------
@Arador	<raul>  Propulsating the inclusion of Extremadura at the society of knowledge
@Arador	<raul>  no to explicit mode of soft. by soft.
@Arador	<raul>  so, at 1997 a projects started
@Arador	<raul>  that pretending that the citiziens from this region will be increased their quality of life by the use of news technologies
@Arador	<raul>  Starting a plan for techonology alfabethization by it we teach anyperson that want to can use the news technologie.
@Arador	<raul>  Are this kinds of centers distributed along the region, mainly at the "village" media and marginal neighborhoods
@Arador	<raul>  how a way of integration
@Arador	<raul>  the 50% of population from Extremadura are passed by this centers
@Arador	<raul>  and since may, -LinEx was presented at April- of this year ONLY use LinEx for their learning
@raul	After if you like i will be deeply in this topic
@raul	Another topic are the bussiness
@raul	and we created a "borning center" in the net for the companies.
@raul	YEs, the project for the bussiness are considerated as valid, we give the physic space, conexion and training for start to the people that request
@raul	Actually, we are training they in free software and some do as teacher of others
@raul	and another aspect, can be more important
@raul	is the education: was a politic decision: that in the next year every student had 1 computer at all the education system from Extremadura
@raul	this is supported, however, in the creation of an intranet that attach, now, all the educative centers of the region -and by the way all the townships from Extremadura-
@raul	here surge the need of free software
@raul	The reasons are mainly 2:
@raul	1.- The money.
@raul	We can't pay all the licenses of the OSs and ofimatic suites. Are more expensive the necklace than the dog
@raul	2.- The sharing of knowledge:
@raul	If we arrived at this point since 1997, we advanced and consolidated the projects... who guaranty that the software go by the same way?
@raul	?
@raul	we had to take the system control
@raul	and there surge LinEx
@Arador	Another thing to emphasize
@Arador	WHen linux emerges, we realise that isn't useful only for teaching
@Arador	and we talk with pc wholesalres
@Arador	They colaborate and since several days i communicate that in Extremadura
@Arador	there's some villages that seel pcs with - only - Linex
@Arador	ANd they say that the sun it's still in the mornings.....
@Arador	Another:
@Arador	The main idea is that the publica administrations have a lot of responsability en this free software thing when adopting our decisions:
@Arador	We can, as Extremadura, "impose" that the opposotions be made with openoffice
@Arador	IN a conceil here has been made public in the BOE, even.
@Arador	And it's going to be proposed in the Junta
@Arador	We've had to kill the idea of
@Arador	Who gives support?"
@Arador	It's clear that the development's enterprises in Extremadura are very happy with this new
@Arador	Because are them who can give the support and they're near
@Arador	We're talking about knowledge, and in this, is to support free software
@Arador	It's clear that it's supporting the man, no for the enterprise and their millions
@Arador	well, i'll not extend more and at your disposition
@Arador	thanks
@Arador	ok, the translation finished, we're sorry we won't translate the round table, we can't do it (at least now) :(
MJesus	the traslation will be later, after will finish the talk,
MJesus	and coulf finf in the web after tomorrow
boticario	ehy alguien me puede decir como era la paguina de las traducciones de las charlas
@Arador	umeet.uninet.edu
Kefar	boticario: busca directamente en umeet.uninet.edu
boticario	gracias
james	bye
MJesus	hasta mañana a todos !

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